A Day of Mourning for Our Nation

March 22, 2010

Yesterday should be known as a day that our country took a huge step down.  In fact, it should be known as a day that our nation fell down into a deep pit.  That deep pit’s name is socialism.  Today should be declared a day of mourning for our country.  May God have mercy on all of us, and especially on our children, who will have to deal with this far more than we will.  I never thought I’d see the day that our country would do something like this.  If you can’t tell, I’m very deeply concerned; more concerned than I’ve ever been.  At the same time, I know that God is still on His throne. He is still God no matter what our government leaders do to hurt and destroy our country.  And, I know that my Heavenly home is waiting on me, and on all true Believers.  So, I’m not depressed, nor am I in despair.  But, concerned?  Yes. 

We need to pray for our nation.  We need to pray for God to watch over us.  We need to ask God to give our national leaders some good sense and wisdom.  And, we need to look to God for our strength.  Also, in November, we need to remember who it was that tried to lead our country into socialism and bankruptcy.   At the next Presidential election, we all need to remember who it was that caused our nation to take such a drastic step in the wrong direction.  We need to remember who these people were who wanted our tax dollars to fund abortions.  We need to remember the ones who wanted our country to make this big change in direction towards socialism, and higher taxes, and more government control over our lives.  I will remember.  Will you?

Leave a Comment:

All fields with “*” are required

 characters available

cb scott

A truthful post Vol.

You are right. The wise Christian will know God is in control. The wise Christian will also pray for this nation and if God tarries, the generations to come.

David Rogers

Okay, here’s the deal. I, for one, am very sad that, apparently, the door has been opened a little bit wider than before for the horrendously wicked practice of abortion in our country. I also believe that our health care system in the U.S. is major mess-up, and something has got to happen, so that normal people are able to get the medical care they need, without it hitting them so hard in their personal finances. Beyond this, the issues of economics are so complex that I am not sure what the best solution is.

But, above and beyond all that, I know that the joy of my salvation, and the onward march of the Kingdom of God (e.g. the things that really matter), are not dependent on whether the health care bill passed or not. For 18 years, I lived in a country that has socialized health care. I don’t think I came out any worse for it. Now, it is true that Spain is also a very spiritually needy country. And, I do not wish that the U.S. were in the same spiritual shape as Spain overall as a country. But, I can testify that there are plenty of believers and churches there that are living in the victory of the Spirit, and who are being faithful to the task God has called them to do, in the context in which God has called them to do it, and socialized health care has not kept them from doing that. If and when socialized health care comes to the U.S., life will go on. We, as Christians, if we are faithful, will continue to walk with the same God, and base our lives on the same Bible, as before. God’s work will continue to move forward. Lostness will also continue to exist all around us, just like before. If and when it happens, we will need to focus in on lostness and on reaching people with the gospel, and not get sidetracked or worked up over different political and/or economic approaches to the temporary issues of this world.

Russ Moore has a good word to say on this today:

http://www.russellmoore.com/2010/03/22/dont-be-afraid/

Josh C

I was trying to encourage a friend who was freaking out to the extreme about yesterday’s events when I started to type the following:

“don’t worry. this too shall pass.”

Then I thought that might not be the right wording!

Logan

I am not for the health care bill and am not 100% familiar with all of it. I hate the ease of abortions it apparently causes.

1 Question I do have is specifically regarding socialism. From reading Dueteronomy and God’s laws regarding debt forgiveness and the day of Jubilee, etc. could Israel have been described as socialist as designed by God?

This is honestly a clarifying question because I am confused. I want to have a right understanding of it so that scripture informs my views of government.

I would love to know your thoughts.

Roger K. Simpson

I was glued to CSPAN all day yesterday.

I watched every one of those congressmen “revise and extend their remarks”.

I’m not that enthralled about the passage of the health care bill. However, the current system is not sustainable financially. Also, the current system dumps people into bankrupcy just because they loose their job and have a “pre-existing condition” and can’t buy health care at any price.

The Democratic plan is far from perfect. But for many, at least there will be SOME type of health care available for those who can’t get it or afford it.

I don’t like a government takeover of healthcare. However, the private enterprize system and/or the Republican party didn’t do a thing to solve this problem over the last four decades when they had a chance to do so.

This new healthcare plan is not popular. A majority of people don’t want it. However, this does not change the fact that 30,000,000 people who didn’t have insurance before are now going to have it. For the Republicans everything about their plan is great except it is “too little too late”.

We are not done with arguing about health care. Far fromt it. Even with the passage of this landmark bill this debate and the rancor that attends it is just warming up.

I don’t think as Christians we should spend our capital on this. It is not our first, second, third, fourth, . . . priority issue.

As Christians we have enough polarization as it is – without drawing lines in the sand over health care.

Roger K. Simpson
Oklahoma City OK

Bob Cleveland

I recall the Documentary on Discovery, about the prisoners, particularly one who said he didn’t want to put anything in his cell to make it seem “more like home”. He said it wasn’t his home, and he didn’t WANT it to seem like it was, to him.

He wanted to have to look to his home, for a place that would feel like his home.

I don’t think God likes competition. So every time we threaten to slip into a state of thinking earth IS our home, he sends reminders like this to show us that, if we’re getting our comfort or our security or our sense of “belonging” from this place down here, then we’ve been looking in the wrong direction.

We need more often to be reminded than informed, someone once said.

Amen.

David Worley

One of the biggest things that concerns me about all of this is the control that govt. will have over our lives. That’s the biggest issue for me. I dont want the govt. telling me what to do. I dont want the govt. dictating what we can and cannot do. I dont want the govt. having that kind of control over my life. If they control healthcare, and if they control your money, then they will just flat out do whatever they want to do. I believe that it’s somewhere in the 40 something percent range right now of people who depend on the govt. for their money to buy food, housing, etc. I’m talking about the people who work for the govt., or who are on govt. assistance. How far are we away from the govt. dictating our religion, or persecuting us for not being obedient to the state in our worship practices, when they control people’s money and healthcare? If they control how much money you have to buy food and clothes and a place to live, and they also control what kind of healthcare you’re allowed to have; how far away are we from the govt. telling us we cant preach against homosexuality, or cant proselytize people, etc?

Also, you know that taxes are gonna be raised on all of us. Someone has to pay for all of this. So, we’re gonna be taxed even more than ever. It’s coming. It’s gotta happen.

And then, another thing, if you want to see how good the govt. is running things like healthcare, just go to your local VA Hospital. That will be an eye opening experience for all of you who’ve never been. Also, go down to your local health dept. Look at how things are run there. Have yall been to the VA Hospital? Have any of you ever had to do to Health Dept. for anything? If that’s how things are going to, then we’re in for some really bad times.

David

David Worley

As I said, I know that God still reigns in Heaven. But, my heart also goes out to the people, who work at the factories and at small businesses that may lose their jobs over this. My heart goes out to the small farmers who may end up losing their farms. And, did not O.S Hawkins of Guidestone say that the day this bill gets passed, that Guidestone will have to stop offering insurance? What are all of us Ministers gonna do, who are with Guidestone? Go to VA Hospital, Health Dept. type insurance? Oh goodie. :(

Also, we must always learn from the past how things are when the govt. gets control. Nazi Germany. Communist USSR. Communist Cuba. Iraq under Saddam. And, the list goes on and on.

David

BDW

“Also, we must always learn from the past how things are when the govt. gets control. Nazi Germany. Communist USSR. Communist Cuba. Iraq under Saddam. And, the list goes on and on.”

Time goes on but the rhetoric does not change. Similar comments were made with the introduction of Social Security, Medicare and Civil Rights legislation…

cb scott

Big Daddy,

As you know Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are all in trouble. What do you think is going to happen when 88,000,000 people are put into this new healthcare plan?

I realize those issues are debatable and will be for some time. But what is not debatable is what you dais about the Civil Rights legislation.

It is far beneath a person of your intellect and education to make any comparison between Civil Rights legislation and the healthcare bill. For you to remotely suggest that those who are against the healthcare bill were/are racial bigots is poor on your part. You should stand on that comment.

BDW

I’ll let you read what I wrote again, CB.

My comment had nothing to do with the substance of those historic pieces of legislation. And my comment was not meant to draw the conclusion that those opposed to reform are bigots. My comment had to do with the RHETORIC being used. And yes, Strom Thurmond did invoke “communism” as Volfan has done here when civil rights legislation was being debated. Again, the RHETORIC does not change.

Doug

Do you even know what the word “socialism” means????? When you finally learn, then come back and share an informed opinion on the health care bill. Until then…please stop simply repeating what you heard on Beck and Hannity last night!

cb scott

Big Daddy,

You don’t need to tell me what Strom Thurmond said. I already know that. I also know that some people who are of the same theological persuasion as you who said the same thing.

My point is that you can debate this issue and use SS and Medicare, etc. without injecting inflammatory language into the mix.

Frankly, your bringing such failing institutions as Medicaid and Medicare into the debate makes it easy to argue against the logic of believing national healthcare will work.

cb scott

Doug???,

I do not know who you are speaking to in your comment. But some of us have read the bill more than once, especially since it has constantly changed so much.

None the less, your comment is silly and shows a lack of ability to debate this issue. I would far rather debate healthcare with Big Daddy. He does read big boy books. So go back to your TV and or play Wii to pacify yourself and let the grown-ups talk.

Jake Barker

Biff,
What does “socialized medicine” have to do with our faith in Christ Jesus? Your mixing of religion and government are tasteless at the least and grossly ignorant at the worst. I could care less what anyone thinks or says about the bill that passed….I for one was not for it….however to mix it with religion is inexcusable. Would you not agree that healthcare in America at this point in time is broken? There are people in extreme circumstances that cannot even see a doctor for their lack of funds. I know of a SBC some 65 miles from where I sit that has a free clinic staffed by a MD(a member of that congregation by the way) one night a week. He also solicits samples of pharmacutecals from the sales reps and those go to those who receive the medical treatment at the free clinic. That my dear Biff is the essence of our Christian faith….unlike your infantile prattle.

cb scott

Jake,

If you will close down your store and stop selling folks that which makes them sick, crazy and dead it would help to solve the healthcare problem also.

Amy Downey

Interestingly enough my anti-spam word was “peace” or in the Hebrew “shalom”. Two observations I want to make because of this anti-spam word.

First, while the USA has been captured by the media attention paid to this health care debacle we have ignored the growing separation of international relations between this country and Israel. Does anyone remember or care about Genesis 12:1-3 anymore?

Second, true peace is not possible in this fallen world. And while I am saddened by the passage of this dreadful piece of legislation, I realize that this is not my ultimate battle. My battle is against what Paul described as the prince and powers of the air. Our battle is spiritual. Our cause is evangelism. Our hope is Yeshua haMashiach (Jesus the Messiah) who will be our Sar Shalom (prince of peace).

Todd Nelson

David Worley, I don’t think mourning is called for, nor is raising the spectre of socialism, communism, or fascism. But certainly the electorate and the elected need prayer for wisdom, righteousness, and courage.

David Rogers, thanks for your comment. It brings a moderating international Christian perspective which, I dare say, many American Christians need.

David Worley

Doug,

I havent listened to Beck and Hannity in I dont know when. As CB said, when you have an informed opinion, or something worth talking about, then come again.

Big Daddy, I’m against the State having control over people’s lives to the extent that these sweeping, socialistic laws give it. I do not trust the govt. I do not want the govt. feeding me, clothing me, housing me, giving me healthcare; nor do I want them dictating that I have to buy healthcare. I do not want big govt. I’m all for smaller and smaller govt. I’m for people’s taxes going down and down and even farther down; so that THEY have the money to spend as THEY…WE…see fit. And, I am very concerned where this socialistic agenda is heading. I am very concerned about the freedom that we could lose. I really cant understand why you’re not concerned. Do you really trust the govt. that much?

Jake, who’s mixing our faith in Jesus Christ with socialized medicine? Your whole comment makes absolutely no sense at all. I’m against big govt., socialism, communism, higher taxes, and govt. control. My faith in the Lord Jesus will still be there whether we’re a socialistic nation, or a capitalistic nation, or whether we have a King, or a President. God will still be God no matter what man does down here on this Earth. But, I still dont like socialism, nor the control over people’s lives that it gives them, nor the potential to limit freedom….even religious freedom.

I wish that I could introduce you and Big Daddy and Doug and Amy and some of you others in here to the H’mong people that I used to preach for and minister to…back when I lived in Memphis. I wish they would tell you what it was like to have the govt. telling you what job you could work; where you could live; what you could worship; and they even told them that the men could share their wives when they were sent to another town on a job. I’m not kidding. If a man had to go to another town on business, then they were to share their wife with this man. The H’mongs fought in the jungles against the communist alongside the American troops. When the war(conflict) was not won due to liberal congressmen tying the hands of our military in Vietnam, then at least they let the H’mongs come to America to escape what the GOVT. was gonna do to them over in Laos. Ask the H’mongs about giving the govt. more control over your life.

Ask the Jews from Germany 80 years ago what they think about the govt. gaining more control over your life. Ask the Pastors that ended up in Soviet prisons what they think about the GOVT. getting more control over people. Ask the Kurds. Ask the Cubans in Miami.

David

David Worley

Todd,

I am mourning, and I’m calling on everyone to mourn and pray for our nation. We’re heading in the wrong direction…fast. I do pray for our leaders. And, I do think that our fight is with spiritual forces and not with flesh and blood. But, I still think that where our govt. is heading should concern all of us. It should cause us to pray. And, I can assure you that it will influence my voting in November, and at the next Presidential election.

Well, maybe America is getting what we deserve? Maybe it’s time to pay up? Maybe the Lord is allowing us to get what everyone wanted, like Israel wanting a King; and they got Saul?

David

David Worley

Logan,

The nation of Israel in the OT was led by God. It was a Theocracy. Thus, it has no resemblance to any kind of govt. that we have today. We have socialism, and it’s kissin’ cousin, communism. We have capitalism. We have dictatorships, and there are still some Kings around as well.

So, no, Logan, it was not socialism in OT Israel. It was God’s reign over Israel, and of course, all the times that they rebelled against His reign.

David

David Worley

Comrade Jake, have you met Comrade Big Daddy?

Heil Obama,

Your Friend,
Vladimir Lenin

David Worley

:)

Jake Barker

CB,
I gave you credit for being smarter than that. If there wasn’t legal well regulated alcohol then Biff’s cousins would have their still going in the back woods making that crap that gives a partaker what is known as jakeleg….lead poisioning.
Biff,
I will bet you a rib dinner that my neck is as red as yours anyday of the week. Your problem is that you are a stupid redneck. As for the “reform” bill that passed if even one child gets medical care as a result….remember…”he that has done this for the least of these has done it unto Me”

volfan007

Jake,

My cousins make good corn liquor. They dont make junk.

Secondly, doing something for the least of these is something that we can do as individuals and as Churches. We dont need the govt. acting like a bunch of thieves stealing from people to hand it out to someone else. I give willingly, voluntarily. It shouldnt be forced on us.

Thirdly, if all this healthcare reform did was to help children, then I’d be all for it. But, you know, and I know, that there will be many freeloaders and lazy bums taking advantage of this, and there will be many crooks sticking their hands into the govt. cookie jar and stealing a lot of cookies along the way. The waste of money will be legion. And, why in the world would we want the govt. to take over this part of our lives? I mean, the govt. does such a good job with tax collection and VA healthcare now…dont they? :(

Jake, give it a rest. And, BTW, you act like you’re better than the moonshiners in the hills. You’re not. You sell the same poison that they do. You make a living at the expense of people’s well being.

David

cb scott

Jake,

You know and I know that your argument will not hold a fifth of bourbon, much less water.

And we both know that your “blindness” is not caused from white whiskey, but by greed. You simply don’t see because you do not want to see.

Wiley Drake Issues Health Care Fatwa | the big daddy weave

[…] accepted rhetoric of a Southern Baptist pastor at the popular blog, SBC Today.  In a post titled A Day of Mourning for our Nation, Tennessee pastor David Worley expresses his fear of upcoming religious persecution by the […]

John Fariss

Roger, I must give a hearty “AMEN” to your comment. Thanks for making that statement.

Jake, the SBC church I served previously maintained a clinic also. When it started they opened one Saturday morning a quarter. A dozen or so people came, had the paperwork done there, and then were transported 5 or so miles to the doctor’s office. When I left, they had their own facility on church property, were open two or three afternoon-evenings a week, and probably a half-dozen churches participated by sending volunteers or contributions; they saw 20 – 30 patients every time they were open, and had to turn people away. One Christian doctor primarily staffed it, and a few others he could occasionally arm-twist into helping, so there were alway people who were turned away. When it opened, that community (the Hickory metro area) had one of the lowest unemployment rates in NC; but then their economy went bust, based as it was on furniture manufactoring, textiles, and fiber-optic cables, and so many people lost their jobs it came to have one of the highest unemployment rates in the area. And although a few churches stepped in to help (only about half of which were SBC or even Baptist by the way), most considered their mission to be “spiritual” and would have none of this “social gospel.” What an opportunity they lost to minister in the name of Christ Jesus! What an opportunity they lost to prevent the government from steping in to fill this void, when all they had to do was work together, get their members who were doctors and nurses to participate, and meet the health-care needs of the uninsured. But no; it’s easier and cheaper to gripe than to minister.

BTW: under the new plan, assuming the Republican attorneys-general’s lawsuits are thrown out and it actually goes into effect, do you know who will the doctors be working for? Answer: the same hospitals and practices they now work for. Unlike in the countries with real socialized medicine where all the doctors are employees of the national healthcare system. Just something to think about before ramping the rhetoric up to cries of socialism and communism.

John Fariss

cb scott

John,

I have yet to make one statement about socialism and the healthcare bill. I have read the healthcare bill (in at least one rendering) and I believe it will be the most conducive step to deconstructing any steps we have made since 1973 to end abortion on demand in this nation.

So, let’s forget the pro-con socialism rhetoric for a moment and let me ask you a straight question.

Do you really believe the healthcare bill as it stands will be beneficial to the general populace in this nation? And if so why?

volfan007

John,

The govt. taking over healthcare…making people and businesses provide healthcare…taxing people to try to pay the monumental bill that this will cause for our country…is not ministering. It’s called socialism. It’s called a govt. butting in on people’s personal lives. Now, if you want to talk about all the things that our Churches, SB Churches, my Church, do to minister to people; well, let’s talk.

John, do you honestly think that a govt. run healthcare system will be better than what we have now? I mean, the govt. does such a great job with the things they run now…dont they? lol.

Also, John, I would think that you would not be for the govt. taking over people’s lives, and having control over people. Having control over a persons health is pretty serious control. You like that?

Also, John, I want to echo CB’s sentiments about abortion. I wonder how many more babies will be murdered in their mother’s wombs due to this “healthcare?” What do you think?

David

Christiane

The ‘good guys’ won.
The ‘good guys’ are the people who paid their premiums and were denied care when they got sick. The ‘good guys’ are all those young people who will now be carried on their parents’ insurance until they are 26 years old. The ‘good guys’ are those dear moms who have tried so hard to find insurance for their children who had ‘pre-existing conditions’ (what a tragedy this has been for these families), the ‘good guys’ are the people who will develop serious medical conditions and will no longer be ‘thrown off’ of their insurance, and so many, many more.
You know, these people have suffered and have waited ‘outside the gate’ while self-satisfied ‘Christians’ partied at the banquet table. Perhaps there is the ‘hand of God’ in all this after-all. Because so few who claimed to worship Him lacked the simple humane compassion for those who suffered. I think it may be true.
In any case, I am thankful that profit-care lost out to the ‘good guys’.

David Worley

Christiane,

Please do not get me wrong. I was not against reforming healthcare. It needed reforming. Something needed to be done to help things be better. But, I’m never for socialism. I’m never for big govt. I’m never for the govt. taking more control of our lives. History teaches us a great lesson about govt.’s that gain more and more control of people’s lives. And, I sure dont want that history repeating itself on my family and friends and brothers and sisters in Christ.

I myself have gone without adequate healthcare for most of my ministry. I have always had very high deductibles, and my insurance basically would just pay for huge problems…basically for hospital visits. For most of my ministry, I’ve been on what you’d call the poor side. I’ve faced many, many times in my life when I wondered how in the world we were gonna pay for taking one of my children to the DR. And then, after seeing the Dr., we would wonder how in the world we were gonna buy medicine. So, I’ve been there, Christiane. And, even now, I pay over 1,000 dollars a month for insurance that has a very high deductible. Why, I actually told my rehab therapist today that I wouldnt be able to have all the treatments due to my insurance deductible not being met, and I’d have to pay the $100 per visit out of my own pocket…which I dont have. Thus, I plan to do 2 of the rehab sessions, instead of the 12 that my Dr. told me to have.

Christiane, I still dont want the govt. taking control of my life. I still dont want socialized medicine. I still dont want socialism.

Also, I still stand amazed at how many of you thinking that the govt. doing something as drastic as this is somehow fulfilling the commands of God? That the govt. doing something like socializing healthcare can be seen as fulfilling the teachings of Scripture? That these guys are the “good guys?”

Christiane, I guess you’d been perfectly fine with Stalin and Lenin providing people with food and clothing and housing and such in Russia and the surrounding countries back a few years ago. Wouldnt you?

David

cb scott

L’s,

Did you take the time to read Matthew 22:1-14 today as I asked you to do over at Peter’s place? If you did did you not see your reflection in the mirror of verses 11-13?

L’s all the government or private healthcare in the world will not heal your problem.

L’s we have been communicating for almost two years now. Have you yet not repented of sin and believed the biblical gospel? If so, how can you continue to resist the gospel?

Christiane

Thank you for responding, David.
I believe very much in this:
“Judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment” (James 2:12-13).

The rights of innocent people in our country have been violated so profoundly by the health-care industry that got its start when Richard Nixon was in office.
The way that this industry profited was to collect premiums and then to limit care, sometimes in cases that led to terrible suffering and deaths of many American citizens.
What I celebrate is the freedom of our citizens from being ‘hostages’ to profit-care. And I am very, very grateful that the nightmare has ended for these innocent people. WE ARE ‘the government’. There IS a need, as a people, to stand up for the common good, over the abuses of profit-makers who victimize our people. I am very glad for the government to have done what none of us alone could do.
You know something, I have seen people on both sides of this issue. One side argued for politics and for capitalism and the rights of the profit-makers. The other side argued to stop the abuses of an out-of-control health insurance industry whose decisions had become immoral and threatened the personal welfare of our people.
I am glad for the innocent who will be protected now.
If the others had wanted to stop the abuse, why wasn’t it done?
The truth is, they didn’t have the moral courage to stop it. They would have been targeted, called names, shouted down, and spit at, like the scenes on television where ‘protestors’ were seen by the nation openly engaging in these behaviors.
I think those democrats that chose to help the innocent know that they will be voted out of office. But they helped the innocent anyway. That is called moral courage. We still have it in this country. I had wondered if we did.

Christiane

Hi C.B.
I wrote back on Peter\’s blog but my comment was not there when I looked again. Yes. I did read in St. Matthew\’s Gospel. It is part of the Holy Scriptures of my faith, as you know. And I left you a blessing there on Peter\’s blog. But later, it was gone. I don\’t know why.
Please read ALL of St. Matthew\’s Gospel, C.B. The fullness of the entire Gospel of St. Matthew sheds much light on Christ\’s teachings for all of us so that we may live fully, in the Peace of Christ, and at peace with one another.
God bless you, C.B., and remember that I keep you in my prayers.
Love, L\’s

cb scott

L’s,

You mention 1973. That’s interesting. You also say you are “glad for the innocent who will be protected now.” That is interesting also.

In 1973 the United States began the legal slaughter of the “innocents” that now has risen to well over 50,000,000. I would be interested to know if you were against the slaughter of the innocents in 1973 and what you think of the continual slaughter of the innocents to this very day?

BTW, I asked you a question earlier in comment #33. Maybe you did not see it. I would also be even more interested if you would address that question.

cb scott

L’s,

I did not read your comment before I posted comment #36.

I went back to Peter’s blog. I think you are mistaken. Your answers to my questions are there.

cb scott

Here is where our conversation began at Peter’s place L’s.

“Indeed I do not think it too much to say, the CR men were men…real men…men of steel…forged steel…men of backbone…forged backbone…”

Oh, Peter, I do so respectfully disagree in one instance: it did not take ‘backbone’ to put Dr. Sheri Klouda and her family into terrible straits in the midst of her husband’s serious illness. I will never understand how any Christ-honoring person could have treated her the way she was treated. So very sad.

Posted by: Christiane | 2010.03.20 at 10:51 PM

Christiane,

Have you yet repented of sin and believed the biblical gospel for the salvation of your lost soul?

You can talk about Sheri Klouda and any other cause you like. You can become indignant about man’s inhumanity to man. You can talk about the various failures of the SBC. You can even look out your own back door and talk about the total failure of Roman Catholicism to present the biblical gospel.

But,unless you are born again, you cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

Posted by: cb scott | 2010.03.21 at 05:54 AM

cb scott

L’s, here is the second part of our conversation over at Peter’s place.

Hi C.B. SCOTT,
How are you? Sometimes we talk together over on Wade’s or Debbie’s blogs. Thank you for your concern for me, but I do not believe that ‘biblical Christianity’ inspired the brutal treatment of Dr. Klouda. My faith teaches that no evil may be done so that good may come of it. What was done to her was evil. She suffered. Her family suffered. It was not done by Christian hands. I am very grieved and concerned for those who harmed her. I am probably as worried for them, as you are for me, so I understand ‘worry’. But we must remember to remain peaceful with one another in Christ, and hopeful that He will give us the strength and grace to ‘bear one another’s burdens’ and seek His Will in all things.
I hope that you remain in Christ’s Peace always, dear one,
Love, L’s

Posted by: Christiane | 2010.03.22 at 04:56 PM

L’s,

My comment was really not related to the plight of Sherri Klouda. BTW, she is doing well and recently got a good promotion. One other thing about Sherri Klouda; I wonder how may of you who constantly bring up her situation actually ministered to her in her time of financial need? I know some have who we have not heard continuing to “use” her for their “personal gain.”

Nonetheless, that was not the purpose of my comment to you. My comment to you was in relation to your lost soul. By your own confession, you have yet to repent of sin and believe the biblical gospel. Frankly, your comment above is reflective of your not truly having a personal understanding of the gospel.

L’s repent and believe the gospel.

Posted by: cb scott | 2010.03.22 at 07:17 PM

Christiane

C.B., your \’biblical gospel\’, as lived out among Christian fundamentalists, does not point me towards Christ the Lord. My faith is centered on ‘the Living Word’. I don’t believe in fundamentalism, whether it is expressed as a form of Christianity, or as a form of Islam. Fundamentalism is not accepted by any of the main-line Christian Churches. In its most extreme forms, fundamentalism is expressed in Christianity and in Islam as an extremely destructive force.
No, I cannot accept your fundamentalist beliefs.
I do accept the Holy Scriptures as written by men who were under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, as well as the Apostles’ Creed and the Nicene Creed of my faith. Do you know the Apostle’s Creed?

cb scott

I found the third part L’s.

Hi CB,

I have always been moved by your concern for my soul, but I must tell you that you do not know my faith. I could never stand at the throne of God and tell Him that anyone had to go to Hell because “I” said so.
In my faith, we do not make ourselves into ‘gods’ to curse others to hell. That would be seen as a form of idolatry for those of my own faith, C.B.;
but I know enough to realize that you have no intent to usurp the power of God in judgment over anyone. So I would never accuse you of such a thing. I believe that you are honestly trying to help another soul. And I am sure that the Good Lord knows your heart far better than I do, and that He could not possibly be offended by your kindness to me.
My complete, total trust in God is based not on fear, but on love. In your message of ‘hell’ and condemnation, I cannot hear echoes of the tone of the angel’s messages of ‘be not afraid’ and ‘peace and good will to men’.
If the holy words of the angels came from God Himself to mankind, then Christians should not speak to one another in tones of fear and should not curse one another, I think. My advice is for you to find out about the faith of another, before you judge them. I can see that your ‘sources’ about my faith have let you down, C.B.
Remain peaceful in Christ.
Love, L’s
Posted by: Christiane | 2010.03.22 at 10:15 PM

L’s,

Peter is my friend and I have somewhat hijacked his post with my comments to you. He has every right to rebuke me. But I will say this to you and bear his rebuke and beg forgiveness later.

L’s, my only source relating to your “faith” is your own confession as evidenced in your comment above.

L’s, I challenge you to read the parable of Jesus in Matthew 22:1-14. Give special attention to verses 11-13. There you will find a mirror. Look into it. You will see your own reflection.

Posted by: cb scott | 2010.03.23 at 06:23 AM

cb scott

L’s,

That is all of our conversation over at Peter’s place. So as you can see, it was not deleted.

I realize people sometimes accuse Peter of deleting their comments, but in this case it is evident that you are just mistaken about the comments being absent. You must have overlooked them, right L’s?

Christiane

C.B., please read my comment numbered 40.

cb scott

I did read comment #40 L’s.

Jesus said in Mark 1:15, “….The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

What does He mean by that L’s? Is Jesus being just another wrong fundamentalist or is he saying that we must repent and believe the gospel for the Kingdom of God is before us?

Is that not what I have said to you for the last two years almost every time we have a conversation?

What did Jesus mean when He told Nicodemus in John 3:3 that he must be born again or he would not see the Kingdom of heaven?

Is that not what I have told you many times in the past?

How is that different than what Jesus has said to us all from His Word “….the Holy Scriptures as written by men who were under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit,” of which you stated in comment #40 you agree?

Am I actually just expressing “fundamentalist beliefs” here L’s? Or am I just repeating what Jesus said.

L’s when you read Matthew 22:1-14 of what conclusion did you come relating to the man who came to the wedding banquet without wearing the proper attire?

What was Jesus saying to the religious leaders of Israel in that parable, specifically in verses 11-14?

And yes L’s, I have read and know the Apostles’ Creed along with several other creeds. But L’s, it does not matter how many creeds we know. We must be born again to see the Kingdom of heaven.

cb scott

L’s,

You said:

“C.B., your ’biblical gospel’, as lived out among Christian fundamentalists, does not point me towards Christ the Lord.”

L’s before I give it up tonight, please answer this question:

What does “point” you “towards Christ the Lord.” giving you assurance that you are a child of God?

Christiane

Hi C.B.
I don’t believe in the fundamentalist teachings of men who interpret scriptures to along the lines of fundamentalism.
I do accept the Holy Scriptures. ALL of them. And, yes, ‘renatus’ is a part of my faith. It means ‘reborn’ in the Lord. One of the Catholic names for a girl is ‘Renata’, from the Latin ‘renatus’, ‘born-again’.
And the word is written on the walls of the catacombs of early Christians, who understood it’s meaning perfectly, having been taught by the Apostles themselves. A born-again person will reflect Christ in their life.
As far as ‘fundamentalism’, I don’t see Christ reflected in the behavior of its followers, who can often be abusive, even to each other, and think that they are doing ‘good’. That is very sad, because it has driven so many away from Christ.
That is why I feel that ‘fundamentalism’ is not biblical. It is not Christ-centered, and neither is it ‘of Christ’ in the way that it’s teachings are practiced. That is very evident to many people, C.B.

cb scott

OK L’s,

Then let’s get back to the question I asked you earlier in this thread relating to the help for the “innocents” you spoke of when you said the “good-guys” won about healthcare in comment #31.

You mention 1973. That’s interesting. You also say you are “glad for the innocent who will be protected now.” That is interesting also.
In 1973 the United States began the legal slaughter of the “innocents” that now has risen to well over 50,000,000. I would be interested to know if you were against the slaughter of the innocents in 1973 and what you think of the continual slaughter of the innocents to this very day?

Christiane

Hi C.B.
The ‘abortion issue’ has been ‘used’ politically by many people. For me, having seen the behaviors of the ‘tea-party crowd’, spitting on congressmen, and shouting the ‘N’ word, and screaming at a handicapped man and throwing money at him because he held a sign supporting health-care, I honestly don’t know if ‘life’ is truly honored by any political organization that does not recognize the dignity of human persons once they are born. I do not doubt that there are some who care, truly care about unborn children. But they are the ones who WANT health care to be there for the ‘born’, and their mothers, because they they value life from conception to natural death.
I must say, honestly, I doubt the sincerity of many who used ‘the right to life’ as an issue while having contempt for people living who were wrongly deprived of life-saving care by their ‘health’ insurance companies. The ‘death panels’ were these insurance profiteers. It was hypocritical to support the profiteers and also claim to oppose abortion. This hypocrisy led many nuns to stand up for health care reform. The new law would not have been supported by Bart Stupak if it was abhorent to those of my faith. He is a man of conscience and worked to keep abortion out of this bill.
BTW, is there any connection at all in fundamentalism to the moral concept of the ‘right to life’ in all of its stages? If there is, I have not seen it.

John Fariss

FYI: I was at most (and sometimes much less) a lukewarm supporter for the bill. But at least it is something, and will provide insurance for 30 million Americans now without healthcare. The GOP claims to have had viable alternatives, but I have to say I am at a loss here. They were in charge of Congress back in the, what? Late 80s, early 90s, with their “Contract with America,” and what health care reform did they pass? Between 2000 and 2008 they had the Executive Branch, with George W. Bush as President, and for six of those years, they had a majority in Congress, and what health care reform did they pass? As much as they did to stop the evil of abortion as retroactive birth control, that’s how much! Consequently, although I voted for “W” twice (and his daddy twice, and before that, Reagan as many times as he ran), the Republican’s failure to act with “compassionate conservatism” has me disgusted with them.

And David, your comments are just over the top. Granted you have a right to your opinion, but I do too, so there we are.

And C.B., you are right, I do not recall you making claims of socialism and communism, so to whatever extent they were aimed at you (I do not recall directing them at you, but perhaps I did in a shotgun fashion) I apologize.

John

cb scott

John,

Your comment about the GOP is a point well taken with me. Thus far Democrats and Republicans have failed to provide what they promise. Therefore, to trust government to care for the healthcare of the public is wishful thinking in my opinion. The present healthcare programs of the government are broken and have been almost from the beginning of their existence. State governments are already fearful and admitting they cannot meet the financial burden the new healthcare plan when placed upon them.

John, you once lived in Alabama. Do you remember a “little” state government agency here called DHR? Part of its mandate is to care for children and elderly people in the state. In you time here I am sure you heard horror stories of the failures of DHR. Brother it is worse now than it was in the past. DHR fails to care for the children in its care now. Under the new law, it is said, that children can still be refused coverage because of a pre-existing medical problem. Full protection for children will not come until 2014.

John, a lot can happen to a government program in that length of time. History gives evidence that what happens to government programs relating to healthcare as time goes on is that they get worse, not better.

I have a suspicion that healthcare for children will not get better for children under this new healthcare plan, but possibly worse and it is already bad.

And I certainly believe that healthcare for the unborn will will be far more unstable than even at the present. And we both know the present situation is not good and has not been under any administration, Republican or democrat since 1973.

cb scott

L’s,

You seem to have dodged my question with a “political” answer. My question was simple. It had very little trappings of politics embracing it. I will ask it again. Maybe you might be willing to leave out the political rhetoric and answer as to what you actually believe based upon your vocalized concern for the “innocents.”

In 1973 the United States began the legal slaughter of the “innocents” that now has risen to well over 50,000,000. I would be interested to know if you were against the slaughter of the innocents in 1973 and what you think of the continual slaughter of the innocents to this very day?

David Worley

I think everyone in here needs to consider our current welfare system run by the govt. It does so good; doesnt it?

lol

:)

David

Christiane

Hi C.B.
The \’abortion\’ issue aside, my Church does not support \’abortion on demand\’. I do not believe in abortion for me, personally. My faith does understand that there are medical situations where efforts to save the life of the mother may result in an aborted fetus. The \’understanding\’ is predicated on the fact that the abortion is not sought as the primary objective in the surgery which has as its primary goal to save the mother’s life: (for example: ectopic pregnancy).
I believe this: that the decisions made between a person and their conscience, after knowing the facts of their situation, is between them and the Lord. I may not assume knowledge of their situation, or judge them. Do I mourn for the voluntarily aborted babies? Yes, I do. I also mourn for the born who have been abused by a \’health-care\’ system run for profit. I don’t abandon the sanctity of life with the cutting of the umbilical cord, as fundamentalists do.
God have mercy on all of us together, C. B. We are none of us \’righteous\’ in our own right, but only by the grace of the Lord Christ. He knows the hearts of all men. Only He, in His perfection, can judge with justice AND with mercy. We aren’t able, because we are imperfect humans.
And C.B., the idea that it is \’Christian\’ to oppose abortions and then have contempt for the suffering of the living is beyond my understanding. What ‘gospel’ teaches this contempt? What ‘gospel’?

cb scott

L’s,

You always return to the evident fact that you are not a Christian and therefore you cannot understand biblical principles. Also, you embrace and convey various tenants and concepts of Liberation Theology.

L’s, I will continue to pray for you that you might cast off the shackles of sin through repentance and faith in Christ, the Son of the living God.

BDW

CB,

Where do you get off making the claim that L’s is a proponent of “Liberation Theology”

And how did you get to the point that L’s has not already “cast off the shackles of sin through repentance and faith in Christ”?

Ann

L’s – Thank you for your comments here. You have shown that your are truly a Christian by your words and patience. I have learned more from you and Debbie than many, many others (read: men).

cb scott

Big Daddy,

It is rather simple. I have read here comments and have asked her many questions.

And if you have read her comments how is it that you do not know the same?

Big Daddy,

Put your liberal politics back in your watch pocket. This poor woman is lost and people saying things like you do only empower her in her lostness. You need to try to help this woman by telling her the truth of the gospel rather than trying to use her here.

BTW, Big Daddy a sanitary little classroom at Baylor does not really teach all there is to know about Liberation Theology.

BDW

Perhaps I have not read L’s comments as close as you have. Although, from what I have casually read, I have not noticed anything sounding like James Cone or Gustavo Guitterez’s Liberation Theology. Are there specific doctrines she’s rejected or have you reached this conclusion about her “lostness” by the simple fact that she’s a practicing Catholic?

cb scott

Big Daddy,

I have been reading L’s for close to two years now. I have asked her many questions. She does not embrace the biblical gospel.

It has nothing to do with her being Catholic. And, frankly, I don’t really know if she is a “practicing” Catholic and if you know anything about Catholics and Catholicism (and I know you do) you know what I mean by that statement.

Big Daddy, I realize you and I differ on many political and theological issues. But I also know you were taught the biblical gospel from your birth. I have never questioned that in the three-four years we have debated issues. As a matter of fact, I have challenged people who have questioned you faith if you will remember. Big Daddy, this has nothing to do with being Catholic, Baptist, etc, etc. It has to do with evident and confessed lostness due to not having embraced the biblical gospel and nothing more.

David Worley

“Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have … The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases.” — Thomas Jefferson

Leave a Comment:

All fields with “*” are required

 characters available