By Bob Hadley, Pastor of Westside Baptist Church in Daytona Beach, Florida, and Chancellor of Atlantic Coast Bible College and Seminary.
This article is the fifth in a series that offers an alternative to the classical Reformed T.U.L.I.P. The entire series by Hadley is available at
http://www.transformedtheology.com
The previous articles are:
Total Lostness
Unconditional Love
Limiting Atonement
Irrefutable Gospel
The fifth plank of Conversionism is the Perseverance of the Savior as opposed to the Calvinist plank of the Perseverance of the Saints. The author of Hebrews says, “Let us hold on firmly to the hope we profess, because we can trust God to keep His promise” (Heb. 10:23). Man’s hope is not in his own perseverance, but in Christ’s perseverance that is rooted in the promises and the character of God. Man’s hope will be found only in what God does in His Son, Jesus. Salvation is based on the person and work of the Lord Jesus and not based on man’s works. The believer’s security is for eternity. Salvation is kept by the grace and the power of God and not by the self-sufficiency of the believer.
According to the Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics website,
Perseverance of the Saints is a doctrine which states that the saints (those whom God has saved) will remain in God’s hand until they are glorified and brought to abide with Him in heaven. Romans 8:28-39 makes it clear that when a person truly has been regenerated by God, he will remain in God’s stead. The work of sanctification which God has brought about in His elect will continue until it reaches its fulfillment in eternal life (Phil. 1:6). Christ assures the elect that He will not lose them and that they will be glorified at the “last day” (John 6:39). The Calvinist stands upon the Word of God and trusts in Christ’s promise that He will perfectly fulfill the will of the Father in saving all the elect.[1].
One of the Baptist distinctives can be seen in the phrase, “the Eternal Security of the Believer.” There is a marked difference between the Perseverance of the Saints and the Eternal Security of the Believer – they are not at all synonymous. For the Southern Baptist, the concept of the Eternal Security of the Believer assures the individual who has placed his faith in the promises of God and his trust in the claims of Christ that He (Christ) will hold onto him (the believer) forever. This is the basis for the fifth plank of Conversionism, the Perseverance of the Savior. This is what Paul says in Rom. 8:38-39: “38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Jesus says of those to whom He gives eternal life, “28b and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand” (John 10:28-29). When an individual comes to Christ and is adopted into God’s forever family, the Holy Spirit takes up residence in his heart and becomes God’s guarantee of that individual’s hope in eternity (see also 2 Cor. 1:22, 5:5; Eph. 1:14).
The problem with the Calvinist position is that this assurance is not as well defined. Where Eternal Security and the Perseverance of the Saints rests on the promises of God and Christ Himself, the Perseverance of the Saints really rests on the “persevering or performance” of the elect. The key to understanding this position is found in the persevering and not in the promise. For the Calvinist, if an individual does not persevere, then he was not saved in the first place. Since a Calvinist cannot discern the will of God without the efficacious work of the Holy Spirit in his or her heart, there is always a question, “Is my life the work of the Holy Spirit or my own hopes and works of righteousness? Has God really saved me? Am I really among God’s elect?” In the Reformed mindset, no one really knows what it means to be “regenerated” and because of that it can be argued that the only way to ultimately know for sure that one is even truly saved, is to actually persevere to the end and be welcomed into Glory by the Lord Himself. It can be argued that this doctrine does not provide any real security to the believer at all.
There is always this “possibility” that an individual may not persevere to the end, indicating that he was never truly saved in the first place. Understand, according to the Calvinist platform, the elect will persevere, but no one really knows who is and who is not the elect until this life is over and judgment is rendered. A Calvinist Christian may live an exemplary Christian life and then divorce his wife at 65 years old and move in with his next door neighbor. At this point, the exemplary Christian, in the eyes of the church, is now living in sin. If he stays in that place and does not repent, the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints will declare this man a reprobate. It will be determined that he was not saved in the beginning and is in need of repentance and conversion. This is in effect what the Perseverance of the Saints really says.
It can be argued that the same thing is true for those holding onto the Eternal Security of the Believer. Ultimately, the true test of faith for both will be determined when the believer closes his eyes in this life and opens them in the life to come. However from a doctrinal standpoint, the fundamental difference in these two perspectives clearly rests on where one’s faith is actually placed. For the Eternal Security position, faith rests in the promises of God whereas with the Calvinist position one’s security rests in the persevering itself and the individual’s holding on to the end.
The real difference in the two positions can be seen in the living out of the lives of those who make professions of faith, confess Jesus as Savior and Lord, be baptized, join a church, and then turn away from that decision at a later date. Jesus warns his followers that there will be those who will call Him Lord but will not do what He has commanded them to do (Luke 6:46):
21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matt. 7:21-23, see also Luke 13:26-27).
The test of love all throughout the Bible is seen in the “keeping of God’s commandments.” This is true in the Old Testament (see Ex. 19:5, 20:6; Deut. 5:10; and Prov. 3:1, 4:4) as well as the New Testament.
Ironically, Calvinists have been criticized for being no different than Arminians in this aspect of persevering. While Arminians know they are saved, they have no assurance that they will keep their salvation. Calvinists know they cannot lose their salvation; they just have no real assurance that they are actually saved in the first place.[2] It can be argued that both positions are really based on works, following a James 2 mandate; and that test is actually more important than Irresistible Grace and the efficacious calling in Unconditional Election. The true test of God’s sovereignty is not demonstrated in the call but in the perseverance. It might even be argued that perseverance is more important than regeneration in the salvific process, since it is the persevering and not regeneration that actually determines one’s final salvation. Granted, for the Calvinist, regeneration is the foundation for perseverance, but perseverance ultimately is the test for glorification.
In looking at the Perseverance of the Savior, Jesus says that His priority was to do what His Father had sent Him to do:
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:39-40).
Eternity is God’s goal for humanity. Men are born to live forever. Sin has upset that goal. God has provided a lamb that has come to take away the sin of the world (John 1:29).
In John 10, Jesus makes a very interesting statement. He tells the Jewish leaders questioning His coming, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep.” Jesus continues, “as I said to you My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.” The question is who are His sheep? Jesus explains who His sheep are. “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep . . . If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.” Jesus’ sheep are those who enter the sheepfold through Him by the way of the cross, which is what He is about to speak of in verse 11. “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.” Jesus then goes on to talk about the hireling who is not willing to risk his life for the sheep; Jesus cares more for the safety of the sheep than He does His own life.
Jesus’ sheep are those who hear Him and follow Him. He knows who they are. Jesus knows who His Sheep are because they are those who hear Him and heed Him (John 10:25-27). This is a consistent message for Jesus. “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15). “9 As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love” (John 15:9-10).
Jesus describes Himself by saying, “I am the door” and He makes it clear that those who enter by Him, do so by hearing Him and then believing His promises. These are those who shall be “saved.” These are the ones who shall have life and have it more abundantly (John 10:7-10). These are the sheep those who hear Jesus’ voice, and Jesus promises them eternal life:
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one (John 10:28-30).
John continues in 1 John with the following declaration:
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? (1 John 5:4-5).
Those who overcome the world are those who believe in the “Overcomer” who is Jesus and He will raise them up in the end.
Peter reinforces this hope that the believer has in Christ Jesus. Peter clearly indicates that the believer’s hope is “3b a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time” (1 Pet. 1:3b-5, emphasis added). At issue here is not the perseverance of the saint; the One who perseveres is the Savior. Jesus is the constant and not the individual. The differential component in this comparison is vitally important. While the Calvinist plank certainly finds its source of validity in the sufficiency of Christ, it is still predicated on the individual’s “persevering.”
In the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints, the individual’s life becomes the ultimate test of his conversion experience. In fact, this tenet actually demands that there is no way for a person to know for sure if he is even saved until the end because his perseverance itself is the actual test of his conversion experience. The Perseverance of the Savior corrects that deficiency by placing one’s eternal hope in the sufficiency of the Lord Himself, and not in the individual’s process of sanctification, which is the gradual transforming of one’s sinful, selfish mind to the mind of Christ. This is just as much the will of God as one’s conversion is and to some degree even more so. For it can certainly be argued that spiritual maturity is the goal of conversion, otherwise God would see men converted and He would simply bring them on home at that point (1 Cor. 2:16).
20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us. 21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee (2 Cor. 1:20-22).
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together (Rom. 8:16-17).
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:1-8).This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men (Titus 3:8).
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory (Eph. 1:11-14).
This idea that the new born child of God is protected in and by the sufficiency of Christ is not an opportunity to do what he or she wants to do. “Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus” (Rev. 14:12). Paul makes it abundantly clear that the Christian is no longer to live in the flesh for “10b the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you” (Rom. 8:10b-11).
Shall the Christian just live in sin knowing that his or her eternity is secure in Christ Jesus?
2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:2-4).
Obviously, Paul is emphasizing the importance of living out one’s faith. However, it is important to understand the living out of that faith is not what guarantees one’s salvation. Salvation is in Christ alone and His Grace alone and not of works lest any man should boast. The Calvinists drive this home in conversion but turn away from it in perseverance.
In the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Savior, an individual’s salvation is affected by faith in Christ and his hope is guaranteed by faith in that same Savior. When an individual comes to Christ and the Holy Spirit takes up residence in his heart, he is adopted into God’s forever family and he becomes an heir of God and a joint heir with Jesus and that settles the question of a believer’s eternal security whether he understands or accepts it or not.
[1] Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics [Online] http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/index.html; accessed on 29 June 2011.
[2] See I. Howard Marshall, Kept by the Power of God: A Study of Perseverance and Falling Away, 3rd ed. (London: Paternoster, 1995), 267.
I’ll be back sometime with more particulars, but I don’t know if I’ve ever seen as big of a straw man as this representation of the doctrine of perseverance of the saints.
Good Morning Les.
Can you explain what a “Strawman” is. I have never seen that statement used before until I started reading calvinist comments.
Thanks!
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Bob, I’m out the door to several meetings. So not much time this am. Briefly, a straw man argument is where one portrays his opposite position (in this case perseverance of the saints) incorrectly, making it more easy to “knock down” (hence “straw” man).
Wikipedia says, “A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.[1] To “attack a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.”
Back later.
the faith ‘of Christ’ . . .
Hey there Sparky!
Bob, it’s late and I just ran through this, but I think you will understand completely when I say people don’t quite get me when I tell them I am a no point Calvinist – “Well you have to believe in Perserverance of the Saints” Uhh nope, not the way Calvinists define it. It’s not about anything I can or cannot do, it’s about the fact that God saved me and those whom God saved stay saved. It’s Preservation of the Saints.
And yes I believe in the doctrine of Total Depravity, but not as the Calvinists define it which should probably be called Total Inability.
Mary,
Sparkey? That is the nicest thing anyone has said to me today… and probably will be! Late… my computer says 3:59 am… where I come from that is not late that is early!
If one believes in TD he by necessity must accept TI… Arminians and Calvinists are in the same boat at this point. That is why I am neither because I believe in Total Separation: which is a modification of Totally Lost that I began this journey on. Maybe I can get Dr. Lemke to publish it… I think you will appreciate it… suffice me to say this… A person who is unsaved has always been deemed “lost”… well a lost person is one who cannot find his way home. Interestingly enough… God is NEVER lost… man is the one who is separated FROM Him not the other way around. My doctrine of total separation will make a LOT of sense. Stay tuned!
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Bob, Sparky is actually my new friend from the PCA, Les, upthread, but perhaps I can find a new nicname for you too. When I call my boys Skippy and Sparky, they just roll their eyes at me. Can’t imagine why!
I don’t actually agree that to believe in Total Depravity is to agree with Total Inability. I don’t think we’ve ever lost the ability to hear God and respond to God. When God speaks to a man “dead” God does not have to do something to that man because the man is beyond a place where even God can reach him without a miricle. When God speaks – He’s heard. God speaks to us through the preaching of the Gospel. Which takes us to the question “is the message of the Gospel resistable.” I think it is.
I’ll look our for your next message, perhaps we’re saying the same things in different ways.
What? Faith “of Christ”
Lost me there. Is that the strawman Les was talking about?
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Dr. Gray Allison, past President of the Mid America Baptist Seminary in Memphis, used to stress that we should believe in the preservation of the Saints, rather than the persevernce of the Saints. I always liked that. I think it’s spot on.
David
LOL! My antiSpam word was BROAD! I’m a broad alright!
David, I like preservation of the Saints better as the emphasis is placed back on the fact that those whom God saved stay saved. Persverance as I’ve studied is more of a works based after the fact salvation – you have to work to prove you’re saved. I know I’m saved because the Bible promises that those who call on the name of Lord shall be saved. Nothing to do with my work and everything to do with God and His Word.
Also in Perverance you get into a question of who gets to determine what fruit looks like? We see legalism sneak in that if you are not doing exactly A B and C in this exact order that some people will claim you must be unregenerate. If your name got left on a church roll by accident, you fall into the realm of unregenerate, if you dare to question the hierarchy you must be unregenerate – you can fill in the blank about everyone’s idea of what a regenerate person must look like. Only God knows the heart and I have an innkling that there may be some Christians who don’t fit the common standards and some claiming to be Christians who missed the gospel completely and yet they would be deemed as having good fruit.
Mary,
I have responded over at Peter’s site. I may still be banned, so I don’t know if you will ever see it. If you want more replies from me, perhaps you should email me. Click on my name, go to my website and find the contact form. I’ll be happy to correspond that way.
Hey Sparky, I actually posted in response to your gossip on Skippy’s blog about Peter, but alas Skippy deleted it! What childishness! And Classy! Perhaps we can meet here on somewhat neutral ground and gossip about Peter and Skippy and Bunyon and Piper!
“deleted it!”
You should have no problem with that. Peter’s example of shutting down talk and all.
But here, I would rather stay on topic. Agree?
Your comment is still on my blog Mary. I did not delete it.
Joshua, I stand corrected! I apologize. My computer’s been acting gimpy.
Sparky, stay on topic? But I’m the off topic queen. Remember Welcome Back Kotter? Epstien died. He was 60. Hope your keeping healthy gramps.
Preservation of the saints would be basically the same as Perseverance of the Savior… in fact, I do like that better. The concept would be the same; we all saved not because we persevered (which is in a sense what Perseverance of the saints really says… I know that is not what Calvinists mean when they use the term but nonetheless that is what the PHRASE says.)
We are preserved because He perseveres! I love that… and understand that this is what Calvinists MEAN when they use the term…
I am just pointing out that as I see it, the peresevering on the part of the saint is really a “Wait and See” proposition because if one does not persevere to the end, he was not saved in the beginning…
So the true card carrying Calvinist cannot know that he is truly saved until he has persevered to the end… and since the end is not here for those Calvinists who are reading this, then you cannot for sure KNOW you are saved until you reach the Pearly Gates because God is the only One who determines who did and did not persevere.
I am glad my faith rests in the promises of God as opposed to my ability to persevere.
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Bob,
Case in point on a straw man:
“I am glad my faith rests in the promises of God as opposed to my ability to persevere.”
No reformed person I know believes that our faith rests on our ability to persevere. That is a false dichotomy…a straw man.
Les, I know that Calvinists agree that those whom God saved will stay saved, but I remember reading something Piper wrote years ago to the effect “If I’m doing right, perservering but then suddenly have a midlife crisis and leave my wife to committ adultery with another woman, than obviously I was never saved to begin with – I didn’t persevere.” the onus seemed to be on him and he could never be sure until he persevered to the end cuz there was always that chance that he might one day find out he was never really saved to begin with.
I’m glad that I don’t have to lie awake nights wondering whether one day I might fall and find out everything I thought I believed was just false and God had never actually saved me. My assurance in salvation rests on God and His promises to me in the Bible, not on whether in the future I may or may not fall.
The quote from Piper I read was very sad, because I think we can have assurance of salvation because God makes it very clear in His Word. Piper didn’t seem to have an assurance unless he continued working.
Mary,
I cannot speak to what Piper said or might have said. I provided quotations here in the comment section from confessions on what perseverance of the saints means. My wish is that the doctrine be fairly represented. Piper, though I like much of what he says/writes, is only one man among many Calvinists. And I would want to see the full context before commenting on him further.
Spark, I think the point is that it’s not actually a straw man when someone like Piper who should know the commentaries as you do still describes it in such a way. Piper’s not the only one I’ve seen through the years who’ve done this.
So on the one hand I get that Calvinists don’t actually believe in works after salvation per se, but it seems when reading some of their words the logical extension of the belief is – you can only be sure of your election if you work, therefore I work to insure my election.
Mary, why don’t you go and find the piper quote in context, bring it back here and we can discuss it. Still, whatever he says is not definitive of the historical doctrine.
I’ll see what I can do Sparks, I’ve got to get off the computer for a while so check in perhaps this evening or maybe someone can do a quick search at Piper’s Desiring God which is where I read it a few years back now.
David, I also like the term “preservation.” But I do think perseverance is a useful term as well, when understood that all of our salvation is by God’s grace.
Here is a quote from another Baptist:
“To be saved is to be preserved in the faith to the end. ‘He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.’ (Mt. 24:13) Not that perseverance is an accident in Christianity, or a thing performed by human industry; they that are saved ‘are kept by the power of God, through faith unto salvation.’ (1 Pet. 1: 3-6) But perseverance is absolutely necessary to the complete saving of the soul….He that goeth to sea with a purpose to arrive at Spain, cannot arrive there if he be drowned by the way; wherefore perseverance is absolutely necessary to the saving of the soul.” (John Bunyan, Saved by Grace as in Complete Works, vol. I, Banner of Truth: Edinburgh, p. 329)
I agree with Bunyan.
Except there is no possibilty of me drowning because God is the one who keeps me from drowning, not my ability to swim.
Mary,
Amen and amen! I know that God WILL finish what He’s started in me. He WILL keep that which I’ve committed against that day. God will finish with 100 sheep…not 99!!! Hallelujah! I’m as good as in Heaven right now! I will go to Heaven, and there aint no doubting it.
David
David, one of my favorite scriptues and old hymns, I miss the old hymns
I know whom I have believed
and am persuaded that he is able
To keep that which I’ve committed
unto Him against that day!
I said I would be back with more, to address the huge straw man Bob as erected. Let me start here:
Bob: “Perseverance of the Saints really rests on the “persevering or performance” of the elect. The key to understanding this position is found in the persevering and not in the promise.”
First, I would like to know where you get that. But second, see here fro the LBC on the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints (POS):
“This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace;”
That does not sound at all sound like the performance of the elect as you say. Notice particularly the last phrase of the LBC portion I quoted above. You are placing the emphasis incorrectly.
Now I agree with this statement of yours, “For the Calvinist, if an individual does not persevere, then he was not saved in the first place.” But I wold add that the statement is true not just for the Calvinist. If one professes faith in Christ but later “falls away,” he/she has proved that they were “never of us [Christ].”
Bob: “In the Reformed mindset, no one really knows what it means to be “regenerated.”
Where do you get this in the POS? The very next chapter in the LBC says,
“Although temporary believers, and other unregenerate men, may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes and carnal presumptions of being in the favour of God and state of salvation, which hope of theirs shall perish; yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before him, may in this life be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace, and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed.”
Contrary to what you say, we can indeed have assurance of our standing in Christ.
You: “Understand, according to the Calvinist platform, the elect will persevere, but no one really knows who is and who is not the elect until this life is over and judgment is rendered.”
Question, is not “really [knowing] who is and who is not the elect until this life is over and judgment is rendered” really unique to Calvinism? Do you know who is and is not elect?
You: “A Calvinist Christian may live an exemplary Christian life and then divorce his wife at 65 years old and move in with his next door neighbor. At this point, the exemplary Christian, in the eyes of the church, is now living in sin. If he stays in that place and does not repent, the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints will declare this man a reprobate. It will be determined that he was not saved in the beginning and is in need of repentance and conversion. This is in effect what the Perseverance of the Saints really says.”
The doctrine of the POS does not declare anything about this man. The church may enact church discipline on the man and excommunicate him, in effect declaring him an unbeliever (i.e. that his profession of faith is not credible), and calling him to repentance. But this has to do with how we in the church interact with the professing church, not the invisible (true) church. No church can 100% definitively declare that a man is reprobate. This is a misrepresentation of POS.
You: “For the Eternal Security position, faith rests in the promises of God whereas with the Calvinist position one’s security rests in the persevering itself and the individual’s holding on to the end.”
This is incorrect. The Calvinist position does not rest in the individual. Read again above what I quoted from a Calvinist confession about where the Calvinist rests. Wait. I’ll quote it again:
“This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace;”
That in no way resembles how you portray it.
You: “In the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints, the individual’s life becomes the ultimate test of his conversion experience.”
No, the ultimate “test” is Jesus not losing any of His elect.
Now, one area we agree is the latter part of your thesis. We agree that we are saved unto good works. Believers do good works as a result of their new birth.
But, the doctrine of the POS in no way ascribes our efforts as Christians as the way we both make it to glory and have assurance of getting there. It as all of grace.
Les,
I understand everything you have said here and I agree that your interpretation of POS is fine and correlates more with Eternal Security than it does Perseverance of the Saints. However, my interpretation is equally justified. It is like looking at a glass as being half full or half empty. Both arguments are justified. And for the record, i am not challenging you on your view of POS… I am challenging a view that POS declares. There is a big difference.
Actually the example that Mary quoted of Piper… is a perfect example and one very similar to what I proposed in my article. Whether you like it or not, it is a valid argument against POS to say… according to WHAT the tenet ACTUALLY says…
If you do not persevere to the end, you were not saved in the beginning. That is what I see Piper addressing… and given that premise, whether you like it or not, whether it is accurate to your interpretation and/or application of the position, What POS says is
If you do not persevere you were not saved in the beginning. That is my objection; plain and simple. That is why I say much the same thing… Perseverance of the Savior or as David has mentioned, preservation of the Saint. These take the focus off me and place it on the Savior…
Which is WHAT I know you and most believe.
Is that better?
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Bob,
I hear you. But I still think you are reading too much into POS and what those adhering to it believe and confess. Take the LBC section I quoted above. Do you agree or disagree with that? I don’t mean the NAME of the section. I mean with what the confession actually says. I have no problem on my end calling it Preservation of the Saints. I actually like that, as I like Particular Redemption over LA.
My point is this. when you say as you did above, “I am glad my faith rests in the promises of God as opposed to my ability to persevere,” you are setting your view (actually my view as well), “I am glad my faith rests in the promises of God,” over against something that is NOT POS, “as opposed to my ability to persevere.” That last part is just not true of POS proponents. We are not trusting in our ability.
Also, not to derail us here, but I find it interesting that you (and others) who are so big on some sort of synergistic new birth are so quick to put our sanctification over to a monergistic category. So, you and God get together to get yourself saved (he provides the atonement and you provide the faith), but after salvation it’s all God?
Now may I be clear. I do believe in monergistic salvation. And I also believe that sanctification is possible only by God’s grace. But we do actually believe and we do actually grow and we do actually “remain”…”I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.”
and…
“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13 ESV)
We are to work out our salvation…knowing it is God who works in us.
Your statement, “If you do not persevere you were not saved in the beginning” is a bit troubling. I rather say that if our faith ceases, then we expressed spurious faith. People in Baptist churches and Presbyterian churches etc. make professions of faith all the time. Most are probably true. Some are not. They are false. And unless God at some point later saves them, they will fall away. They won’t stick around. They won’t persevere in faith.
But the truly redeemed, will continue in faith (persevering) and will absolutely be preserved By God till the end!
Don’t forget about my question above about the LBC. I would love to see your answer.
This statement?
“This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace;”
I am not sure that I care for some of the terminology but if I am reading that statement correctly, after you get past the efficacy and election… I like the intercession and union with the Holy Spirit the abiding with Him part… and i agree that is what preserves those who are saved for eternity.
Make no mistake about it… i see man’s relationship with God as totally synergistic… so your assertion otherwise would be your own making of a strawman… which is the first time I have used that statement.
Now to your last retort… Your statement, “If you do not persevere you were not saved in the beginning” is a bit troubling. I rather say that if our faith ceases, then we expressed spurious faith.
As I said… we all have “our way we would rather say something” but the truth still remains… those who do not persevere to the end were not saved in the beginning. That is WHAT POS SAYS. You can interpret it and restate it any way you want to.
So, given that reality… the truth is as I maintain is the case with Arminianism.. neither of you can be sure of your salvation as Calvinists who hold to POS… because you do not know that you will persevere to the end until you reach the end. I am sorry of you do not like that application but take up the eyes to see and READ it!
Look back at Mary’s reference to a statement that Piper is supposed to have made…
“If I’m doing right, perservering but then suddenly have a midlife crisis and leave my wife to committ adultery with another woman, than obviously I was never saved to begin with – I didn’t persevere.”
Whether he made it or not… the truth is… IF THAT PERSON never repents.. lets add that part to be safe… then it would mean that he did not persevere and therefore he was never saved in the beginning. That is Piper’s stated conclusion and it is consistent with what POS actually says, whether or not he said it or not. That is my point.
I disagree with that tenet. I am close… in that if this guy in this scenario was indeed saved… lets say when he was 12… but at 60 left his wife… got on drugs… filed BK… slept with half the women in Vegas and died in an automobile accident… he would spend eternity in heaven BECAUSE he was preserved by the blood of Jesus!
I don’t understand it all… but I know the fact remains… that I am His child today… period end of story… and I beleive that you are and most of the folks who even bother spending time in these blogs… included my buddy J… BUT our eternal security is not based on what we do or do not do it is based on what He has done for us…
AND for the record, that is not anyone’s definition of monergism so it is still synergism.
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OK Bob. I’ve said almost all I have to say. But one more thing re Piper. I do not know if he really said that or not. I also don’t know that if he did, what the whole context was. But either way, if anyone says that he does not understand POS.
Think about it. Look at the statement again: “If I’m doing right, perservering but then suddenly have a midlife crisis and leave my wife to committ adultery with another woman, than obviously I was never saved to begin with – I didn’t persevere.” sic noted
So committing two sins equals not in the kingdom? This guy gets an unbiblical divorce and commits adultery and THOSE TWO things mean he was never saved in the first place?
Now you added repentance to be safe. But suppose the man does these things and gets hit by a bus on the way home from the tryst with his lover. No time to repent. Are you saying he was not saved? How can you know that? Brother, that’s a Roman Catholic view. He didn’t get to mass or get a chance to repent to the priest or something.
No, you have to take that example further. Again looking at the LBC,
Brother if one has been born again, the bible teaches two things at least: 1. he can fall into grievous sin (see david in the bible) and 2. he cannot miss heaven.
There I’m done. For now.
Les.
My inclusion of did not repent… was to further clarify my position regarding POS… if you look at what your aforementioned statement statement ACTUALLY says if you look REAL CLOSE…
” fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein” that is important… for a time and ” yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.”
Here is WHAT that is SAYING. back to our illustration… old Joe been married for 25 years… chairman of deacons… a reformed bell ringer… leaves his wife… takes up with a hooker… befriends all her friends… that is a real good definition of ” fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God’s displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, ”
Can we get an AMEN there brother?
Ok stay with me. Here is where perseverance differs from preservation… “yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.”
If this guy DOES not repent (renewing his repentance and BE PERSERVED)… then POS will maintain he was NOT SAVED in the first place.
Come on Les… there is nothing to difficult to understand here… that is what persevering to the end means!
My point above was that it did not matter IF PIPER actually said… it echoes what POS actually says.
Now… as I said earlier… I understand that you probably do not believe that and neither do I… that is why I do not accept POS… not because of the way Calvinists apply the term or use it or explain it…
i am simply looking at what the words actually say with no preconceived notions because I dont have Reformed shades on… not that that is bad… I can actually look at things with a different objectivity than you will. That is all i am saying.
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PS..
It would be super if someone else would jump in here… I am sure there are more than one Calvinist in this room that can help explain that POS most certainly means “if a person does not persevere it was because he was never saved in the first place.”
Bob
Bob,
I don’t know how we manage to do it, but we mostly can’t seem to get to any conclusions. You wrote:
“My inclusion of did not repent… was to further clarify my position regarding POS… if you look at what your aforementioned statement statement ACTUALLY says if you look REAL CLOSE…
” fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein” that is important… for a time and ” yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.””
I AGREE!!! I’m the one who quoted the LBC affirmatively.
You: “Can we get an AMEN there brother?” Yes to what you had just quoted.
You: “Ok stay with me. Here is where perseverance differs from preservation… “yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.”
Agree.
You: “If this guy DOES not repent (renewing his repentance and BE PERSERVED)… then POS will maintain he was NOT SAVED in the first place.”
No, I do not agree necessarily. See my “hit by the bus” example above. Furthermore, no one of us can know his heart. Was he truly born again? If so, Christ WILL NOT lose him.
Bob, let me try to summarize: POS says that all who are truly born again will persevere and be preserved to the end. It is really that simple. He will not get there by his own strength or power.
You: “My point above was that it did not matter IF PIPER actually said… it echoes what POS actually says.”
No. Neither you nor Piper can know that.
Once more, if one is truly born again, they will persevere with “faith that works,” even if at times they stray into grievous sin for a time. They will come back. God will not let them apostatize. If they are of the faith they will remain in the faith.
If a man runs off with another woman (a professing Christian) and commits adultery, even for a season, that does not mean you or I can say for sure that he was never saved or that he didn’t persevere. It COULD mean that. But you and I cannot see in the heart. To think otherwise is ludicrous.
Blessings.
One final statement and I like you am done on this issue…
Your final paragraph… If a man runs off with another woman (a professing Christian) and commits adultery, even for a season, that does not mean you or I can say for sure that he was never saved or that he didn’t persevere. It COULD mean that. But you and I cannot see in the heart. To think otherwise is ludicrous.
You need to know I agree with that statement; my point is POS does not allow that. Read the statement… the guy perseveres IF HE REPENTS…
With that I am done.
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Bob,
“the guy perseveres IF HE REPENTS…”
Yes and no. Yes, assuming he lives a long life afterward I believe that POS teaches that God will eventually bring him to repentance, though these things are things we can only speculate about.
But no too. If he is truly redeemed, commits adultery even continually for a season (no one can know how long) and is hot by a bus before he can come to his senses spiritually, he still belongs to God. Brother I cannot be any clearer. That is protestant theology.
If one says that if the bus hits a truly born again person before he comes to repentance, that that man is lost, that is RC theology.
Now I’m done too. Too much debate to catch up on.
“hot” should be “hit,” or maybe not.
Les,
You are correct… 110%, “he still belongs to God. Brother I cannot be any clearer. That is protestant theology.”
The problem I am trying to make is that it is not what POS actually says! The saved persevere If they remain in sin “for a time” and “yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.”
Notice the language there… “renew their repentance AND be preserved through faith”… that is my problem with POS… not what you believe! I am saying in effect, that what you say you believe by the statements you have made are correct… they are just not consistent with what POS actually says.
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Bob,
Perhaps you are having a hard time with the English word persevere. Webster degfines as :
“to persist in a state, enterprise, or undertaking in spite of counterinfluences, opposition, or discouragement”
Notice: To persist in a state.
POS is not saying that man earns his way along. The historic confessions on this are quite clear. It is God who saves and God who preserves.
But, that does not mean that man stops believing. A born again person is a lifetime (after conversion) of exercising faith. His faith persevers! He “persists in a state” of grace.
All I can say is that you are tackling a problem with POS that does not exist…except for you.
Does God preserve us ? Yes.
Do we persevere? Yes
These do not contradict.
Princeton theologian said well”
That is what I have been trying to communicate. I tried to avoid too many quotes. But perseverance is “working out our salvation” knowing that it is “God who is at work in us.”
Before someone says, “Hey, that’s not possible!”
May I remind you that you could declare the same thing about the supernatural work in creation. Hey, how about the trinity?
Jesus 100% God. Yes
Jesus 100% man. Yes
Can I fully understand that? nope.
Neither can we fully understand us living the Christian life and persevering and yet it is God.
Done again, till next time.
Ok, maybe one more time. Seems that your BF&M carries the same idea, even using the same language, as the POS section in the LBC.
In fact, in the BF&M I cannot even find “eternal security of the believer.”
Bob: As born again Christians, we have the Holy Spirit in us. Look in scripture. Repentance was the sign of being born again. It’s not that we don’t sin. We do. It’s before salvation we didn’t care if we sinned against God. As true born again Christians, we do. So repentance is the sign of being truly born again.
Debbie,
OK… I could not figure out why you posted what you did… as if I did not know what repentance was or why it is necessary. I am going to assume you are commenting with respect to my insistence that repentance is essential with respect to perseverance.
Your statement is irrelevant to my argument. My comments with Les was in response to what POS actually maintains.. and that is when a true saved person sins… he will repent because he is saved. Take the illustration Mary quoted from Bunyan above…
But perseverance is absolutely necessary to the complete saving of the soul….He that goeth to sea with a purpose to arrive at Spain, cannot arrive there if he be drowned by the way; wherefore perseverance is absolutely necessary to the saving of the soul.” (John Bunyan, Saved by Grace as in Complete Works, vol. I, Banner of Truth: Edinburgh, p. 329)
If the swimmer does make it to Spain, he did not persevere so he was not saved. According to the statement Les quoted above, the last sentence is the qualifier for the whole statement…
The KEY to understanding POS… is found in the following statement… <b yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end. I do not care how one tries to avoid it… that simply means IF an individual gets off into sin and does not repent… he does not persevere and he was not saved in the beginning.
I do not know why this is so difficult to understand not why there is so much argument here… that is what POS says.. and that is why I disagree with it.
That is my point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Goodness.
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correction… if the swimmer DOES NOT make it to Spain, then he does not persevere so he was not saved.
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Bob,
Two questions:
1. Have you ever read The Pilgrim’s Progress?
2. Do you agree or disagree with your convention Baptist Faith and Message section I quoted above?
“if a person does not persevere it was because he was never saved in the first place”
Bob, that’s pretty much what I’ve read. I’m not as well studied on this particular petal. I’m having trouble finding the actual Piper quote – the things I click on throw me to a blank screen. So Sparky, I’ll concede that perhaps I’ve taken him out of context (since I can’t give you the context) if you’ll not throw aspersions on my integrity by implying I’m making it up. If I have time I have some other resources -they’re called books – that I know I can pull some quotes from. But time is tight right now so don’t think I’m blowing you off if you don’t see me here again.
Now I think the point is demonstrated with the Bunyon quote – the quote seems to be it’s God preserving you PLUS you have to continue to persevere
“…….He that goeth to sea with a purpose to arrive at Spain, cannot arrive there if he be drowned by the way; wherefore perseverance is absolutely necessary to the saving of the soul.”
Perseverance is absolutely necessary. I don’t agree with that because the onus has then placed on me to perservere ie swim or drown.
Now I am NOT a synergist. All the work of salvation is performed by God. Faith is not a work, is not a work, is not a work! People can have faith in all different gods and ideas, but it’s only when God stamps our faith as good that we are saved by His grace. The work of salvation was done on the cross. It is finished.
Mary,
The Bunyon quote illustrates well what POS actually says. If one is saved, he will arrive in Spain; he will persevere. If he does not persevere, even though POS may not say this… he was not saved because he did not persevere. That is the fundamental problem I have with POS… as it is written as evidenced by the quote Les made earlier… the caveat is found in the repentance at the end.
The truth is… most calvinists do not really believe in POS… they believe in Security of the believer… or the preservation of the saint… if the Holy spirit has taken up residence in a person’s heart that person WILL go to heaven when he dies. That is where I stand, that is where I believe Les stands and you. That is NOT what POS states. POS does not disagree with Eternal security of the believer… but Les is equating disagreeing with POS as disagreeing with ES and that is certainly not the case.
Sleep well my friend.
Have you seem my latest article at SBC ISSUES.COM on the Calvinization of the SBC? It is interesting read whether one agrees or not.
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Mary,
You: “if you’ll not throw aspersions on my integrity by implying I’m making it up.”
Not at all will I do that. I generally try to treat people with dignity and respect. Others on blogs often do not do that.
If you can find the quote, we can interact on it. But whether he did or didn’t say it, Bob and I have interacted with a hypothetical example of something like it.
Have a good evening.
Sparky, I apologize, my first thought when you commented that “if Piper said” was that the intimation was he didn’t actually say anything like what I remembered him saying/writing. I now see you must have meant “I’d like to see the context of Piper’s words to confirm the gist” which is a perfectly reasonable request. I wish I could find it. It stuck with me because it made me sad for him.
Now as to the topic at hand. I think the horse might be dead. And I cannot stay up late again tonight being an old lady and all.
I’ll look for Bob’s next post to see what we might mix up.
Mary,
That is right. I wasn’t questioning whether he said it or not, or that you may have read it or heard it. Yes, I wanted to see the statement in its context. He may have said it.
Oh well, yeah, I think we’ve beat the horse enough on this one. Apparently you need some rest too. And I’m sick right now anyway. I may have picked up something in Haiti last week.
“Once saved, always saved” should be “Once truly saved, always saved.” There are a lot of lost, Church members out there. I do want to say that the Bible teaches that those people, who are really saved will prove it with a changed heart which results in a changed life.
I do not work my soul to save.
That work my Lord has done;
But I will work like any slave
For love of God’s dear Son.
David
I agree David. I really like eternal security to once saved always saved;
Will be in West Tn mid-March… would love to meet you. Will be at Joylander’s Homecoming; preaching for them that Sunday morning.
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Bob,
Let me know when you’re in the area, and we can meet and eat together…that’s be great. My email is volfan007@bellsouth.net.
David
Les,
The comments that follow may echo some of our earlier conversations about Baptist vs. Presbyterian beliefs, but my main point (echoing one of Ken Stewart’s points in his Ten Myths about Calvinism: The Breadth of the Reformed Tradition, book) is that Calvinism is a broad thing. Whether you happen to agree with Bob’s depiction of the Reformed position is one thing; whether there are “Calvinists” who do so is another.
In addition to the examples (Piper, etc.) that have already been given, let me add a couple more. First, many post-Augustinians believed in a second election to perseverance. In their view, when you are saved through irresistible grace, you now are suddenly awakened spiritually, and now (as opposed to when you were still wallowing in total inability) you really do have freedom of choice. Therefore, you might choose to renounce your salvation. So, it was possible to be elect to salvation, but without the “second blessing” election to perseverance, you would not be saved. For more on this, see R. H. Weaver, Divine Grace and Human Agency: A Study of the Semi-Pelagian Controversy Patristic Monograph Series 15 (Macon: Mercer University Press, 1996).
Second, the Puritans famously struggled with assurance. That was so characteristic that I need not document it. They constantly struggled over felling they had not “jumped high enough” to be saved.
Third, I have received calls about this issue numerous times. I’m thinking of one from the mother of a teenager in a Baptist church in South Carolina. This Baptist family had lived in Utah dealing with the Mormons, so when they moved to the South they thought they would be more comfortable theologically. However, this teenager’s Reformed youth minister was constantly berating the youth, telling them that if they behaved in particular ways that they really weren’t saved. The same thing happened from a Reformed pastor in a church in Louisiana that I preached at not long ago — he kept berating the congregation for evidence in their behavior of their being saved.
Fourth, in I review I wrote not long ago in Journal of Theology and Ministry on the book That You May Know: Assurance of Salvation in 1 John,” by Christopher Bass (a reformed thinker who is a graduate of Southern Seminary, I wrote: “In the sixth chapter Bass provides his proposals about the application of these teachings for the church. He provides five brief case studies to apply these teachings. Unfortunately, like the early Puritans who struggled with assurance because they never knew if their good works were good enough to warrant salvation, the application of Basses principles does not produce assurance. Indeed, according to Bass’es recommendations, professed believers who are unloving, guilty of a besetting sin, or guilty of some particular publicly scandalous sins like adultery should be confronted with the charge that they are not truly saved. This immediately raises two questions. First, it promotes a judgmental culture in which Christians are constantly being judged by fellow believers, not a positive atmosphere for Christian fellowship! Who gave us the right to usurp the place of God and judge each otheres salvation? Not Jesus or the Apostles (Matt. 7:1-5; Luke 6:37; Rom. 14:4, 10, 13; 1 Cor. 4:5; James 4:12)! Obviously, not all people whose name is on a church roll are truly saved. But churches should be fellowships of loving encouragement and exhortation, not of judgmental questioning and condemnation (particularly questioning and condemnation made by other sinners!).
Second, all honest Christians are unloving at times, and suffer from besetting sins. We may not commit sins on a short list of publicly scandalous sins, but we sin repeatedly and all too frequently. To deny this is to deny John’s admonition against lying by saying we are not sinners (1 John 1:8, 10). Therefore, like the Puritans, Bass’s proposal provides virtually no realistic assurance to the believer. Keathley notes that this ”means of salvation” view advocated by Bass, as expressed by his mentor Schreiner (and Caneday) in a book subtitled A Biblical Theology of Perseverance and Assurance, is long on perseverance and short on assurance. As Roy Zuck noted in a review of Schreiner and Caneday, this view ”comes dangerously close to salvation by works, and it fails to give absolute unqualified assurance of salvation for any believer.” Ironically, was not the basic purpose of the writing of 1 John to provide assurance for believers whose salvation was being questioned by others? And yet this proposal places the current day believer in a no-assurance position not unlike those to whom John sought to bring assurance!”
See http://www.baptistcenter.com/Documents/Journals/JBTM%207-1%20Baptists%20and%20the%20Doctrine%20of%20Salvation.pdf
So, I have listed four more examples to explain why we non-Reformed find at least some within the Calvinist position to affirm the necessity of works for salvation. I hope this is helpful in hearing why we who are not in the Reformed camp find the pronouncements of various Reformed thinkers to be controductory or muddled on this issue.
swl
Dr. Lemke,
Thanks for helping to bring some historical perspective. My main point on this post was to make as sure a I can that POS is fairly represented as a doctrine. Sure there are those who misrepresent it as there are those who misrepresent the eternal security of the believer. But that does nothing to change the plan language of the doctrine as I have quoted it above.
The calls you have received over the years is disheartening to hear. That youth minister “constantly berating the youth, telling them that if they behaved in particular ways that they really weren’t saved” should not be in the ministry and he is not representative of true Reformed theology…the theology of the WCF and the LBC.
“Indeed, according to Bass’ recommendations, professed believers who are unloving, guilty of a besetting sin, or guilty of some particular publicly scandalous sins like adultery should be confronted with the charge that they are not truly saved.”
In any case where professing believers are in open rebellious sin they should be loving confronted, not to charge they are not saved, but to lovingly call them to repentance and hopefully avoid further scandal to the name of Christ and reclaim a brother.
But this business of declaring someone unsaved because they commit some even perhaps notorious sin is unbiblical and not Reformed and not consistent with POS. That is also part of what I have been trying to point out to Bob.
“So, I have listed four more examples to explain why we non-Reformed find at least some within the Calvinist position to affirm the necessity of works for salvation. I hope this is helpful in hearing why we who are not in the Reformed camp find the pronouncements of various Reformed thinkers to be contradictory or muddled on this issue.”
You may indeed find muddled pronouncements in the Reformed camp. No denying that. We can all cite examples of people who say they believe as we do, but their actions or statements say otherwise. There is plenty of muddling to go around on all sides. But, that does not change what POS teaches as expressed in the historic confessions, as I have been trying to point out to Bob.
The Perseverance of the Saints DOES NOT teach we keep ourselves by our own works/efforts. Bob continually makes statements above which portray us who believe in POS as trusting in out own abilities. Statements like, “I am glad my faith rests in the promises of God as opposed to my ability to persevere.” That is just not a Reformed doctrinal perspective.
In fact, I should take issue with part of what you say Dr. Lemke. You close with, “why we non-Reformed find at least some within the Calvinist position to affirm the necessity of works for salvation.”
I now NO Calvinist holding to any of the historic Reformed confessions who “affirm the necessity of works for salvation.”
Do you? Can you cite them? Especially is they are in the PCA many of us would LOVE to know who they are.
Anyway, for the record, one last time…let it be clear that the doctrine of POS does not teach that man’s efforts keep him saved. POS is consistent with
“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13 ESV)
God bless,
Les