In this week’s podcast we have the privilege of presenting an interview with Hussein Wario, a Muslim convert to Christianity. He tells his story and relates experiences of reactions/responses from those in the Islamic community to his conversion. In this podcast, Hussein Wario responds to the accusations of Muslims like Mohammed Khan toward Muslim converts to Christianity in America like Dr. Ergun Caner. Wario is the author of Cracks in the Crescent (read an excerpt in Google Books), in which he depicts Islam, his conversion to Christianity, and subsequent persecution.
You can listen to the podcast using the player below, or you can subscribe in iTunes by clicking on the image in this post or on the link in the sidebar. Share in the comments here your suggestions for how we can improve the podcast, and take a moment to give us a rating or a review on our iTunes page. Thanks as always for listening, and we’ll be back for more podcasting fun next week.
Interesting podcast, fellas. I hate I had to miss it. It makes you really wonder why people would believe an anti-Christian Muslim, who Bro. Hussein says is lying thru his teeth about a lot of things concerning Dr. Ergun Caner.
Interesting.
David
I personally can not understand this-Again we are taking an ex muslim’s account of Islam. Surely if Mr Khan was incorrect about these islamic issues like Hussein states then the muslims would disagree with him, but they are not.
If a christian spoke wrongly about christianity would you not correct him in order that he was speaking the truth and understood the truth correctly?
I dont see people looking at the Qur’an and hadith for themselves all i see is people taking another persons word for it. so why dont we use them eyes that God has gifted us with and look for ourselves instead of taking everybody elses word for it.
Louise,
So, are you saying that Bro. Hussein is lying? Or, do you think that Khan is lying?
David
Obviously, this brings a new perspective to whole situation. It makes one wonder why Debbie Kaufman, James White, the Burlesons and their “multitudes” of followers did not interview this fellow in their search for truth, justice and their “noble and self-sacrificing” efforts to protect the SBC and the entire Christian faith from The Brothers Caner, the evil-hearted administration of Liberty University and that loathsome, demonic hoard of aging CR scoundrels who spend all their waking hours seeking whom they may devour?
I am saying that anyone in Hussein’s position would be to a degree bias and bitter. Who can blame him if you believed you faced persecution and had hardship placed upon you when converting?
Khan has no reason to lie about his religion he believes it to be the truth and the correct religion so there is no need to lie about it. He isnt going to alter it to suit others he thinks its perfect.But Hussein is hardly going to come to the same conclusion. he left the religion.
I am just saying that rather than hearing it from a ex muslim who left the religion and dislikes it for his own reasons. i would prefer to see it for myself then i could view the information i need without emotion or attachment involved then its not tainted by anyone.
Doesnt it annoy you that we are always waiting for someone to tell us something we expect people to feed us information without no work on our part and then wonder why we have conflicting stories.
Ergun tells us one thing, hussein tells us a slight different variation, Khan tells us a complete different thing.
can we not just look for ourselves or is that too hard?
Louise,
I have a question for you about lying. On April 28, 2010 Wade Burleson made this statement in a blog post he wrote on his personal blog, “GRACE” AND “TRUTH” TO YOU, relating to Emir and Butch Caner:
“I personally believe it is time for grace to be applied to Ergun Caner and his brother Emir. Not everyone will agree with me, but I will give my reason for believing the way I do and close, forever, my blog to the Caner issue. The secular world, press and the enemies of the SBC are all about to hammer Ergun Caner and his brother Emir and it will not know when to let up.”
Notice these words of declaration by Wade Burleson: “….I will give my reason for believing the way I do and close, forever, my blog to the Caner issue.”
“….close, forever, ‘my blog’ to the Caner issue.”
Louise, shortly after declaring he would close his blog forever to the Caner issue, Wade posted two consecutive posts relating to the Caner issue (May 4 and May 5).
Louise, if a person in his right mind made a public declaration to close his blog forever to an issue and then in less than a week’s time puts up, not one but two, posts relating to the very issue he publicly declared he would forever close his blog to, would you consider that person to be lying?
It is always good to “look for ourselves.”
After doing just that, I think any honest person would conclude that Ergun Caner has credibility issues. An honest person can reach that conclusion by completely ignoring Mohammad Khan and instead examining the court documents and Caner’s own public statements/sermons and the revisions made to his bio, etc. I’ve always thought that the pronunciation issues were nit-picky and just not convincing. Those court documents are revealing though.
Caner’s credibility problem is unfortunately complicated by the fact that we have here an Ex-Muslim pitted against several Baptist antagonists and a Muslim with a certain agenda.
Louise,
Help me understand your logic. You say;
If I follow your logic, I should discount everyone that gives a testimony of being saved from drugs and alcohol as being biased and we should discount that they do not know what they are saying. I do not think that logic will flow.
As you will notice our Brother Hussein logically explained the issue. MoKhan cannot read or speak Arabic. His argument comes from Arabic he was taught by rote memorization. While our Brother Hussein was trained in Arabic and reads the Koran in Arabic, something MoKahn doesn’t do. Also, Brother Hussein is a Christian and MoKhan is not. Brother Hussein does not know Dr. Caner and has never personally met him, so he does not have a “dog in the fight”. MoKhan’s sole purpose is to attack and bring down Christians. You do the math.
Blessings,
Tim
1) Hussein has just lied right now between his teeth if you have listened. He said he became a muslim when he was 14. On Ergun Caner’s page on facebook, he said he was trained at a madrassa for 14 years.
2) If you really trust Caner and Hussein, how come they never debate with any Islamic scholars? They claim they are experts in Islam
Omar,
You are correct in your own eyes. Jesus loves you and He died to give you eternal life. He can forgive you of your ignorance of who He is–God. You can ask him to forgive you of your sin of rebellion against God. He loves you and desires to be a Father to you. He desires a personal relationship with you. You do not need to go to bed tonight and recall the day to see if the scales are balanced. You cannot balance the scales. The best you can ever do is filth in the sight of God. He loves you and desires to be your Savior, Lord, and Friend.
Blessing to you,
Tim
We are not talking about drugs and alcohol. religion has a category all to itself. its easy to tie them in and try and apply what i said. but i wasnt asking you to apply it to situations outside religion. drugs and alcohol have a basis of fact we know that they can cause harm in the body, people can become addicted some can be cured.
We are talking about a fight over a single correct religion. what may be certaincy in your heart is doubt or disagreement in another. Hussain might not know caner but its all about teams isnt it? you cant be for the muslims as well as for the christians its a choice. and of course out of neglectful duty on everyones part we choose those who glorify our belief over those we consider outside it. regardless of factual proof.
I agree with BDW the documents say enough, the evidence is clear, but i dont get it- why is Khan the enemy? He came to the same conclusion with the documents that everyone else has and no one had a problem wit that -But when it comes to Ergun and his previous islamic duties the same kindness is not extended. I find it that suddenly everyone beleives they know better because Hussain is here to point out Khan is incorrect in Khan’s religion when his hundreds of fans who are also sharing the same religion are in agreement with him.
but still believing the ex muslim is better???
In case you didnt notice muslims are quite quick to fight amongst themselves – strange though that they all seem to agree with Khan’s following of Islam and the discrepancies in Erguns testimony. I would be very careful in not drawing to a conclusion that you understand islam and its terms because Hussain has now enlightened you. It seems one ex muslim and people just fall at their feet- i think when it comes to a muslim’s religion the muslims know it best so leave them to it.
okay say for example a mormon converts to islam and then proceeds to tell the muslims all about christianity -the muslims regard that person as knowing all, simply because they converted.
How silly is that- when they would did and still have the most distorted perception of christianity! Similarly just because you can read arabic does not mean you were a muslim that represents islam and you are able to talk about it in a correct way that truely represents it.
It is a dangerous thing to speak for others.I think the focus should not be on Mohammad Khan or James White or Debbie but on Ergun himself, this is about Ergun and his actions -focus on one thing and when that is finished move onto another.
Omar,
Would you please give us a link to where I said on Facebook, I “was trained at a madrassa for 14 years?” I found the Light and embraced Jesus Christ at 14 years old.
Hussein
Louise,
I do not disagree with Big Daddy. Guess what? Ergun Caner did not disagree with him either. That is why he repented and made a public confession before the student body at LU.
If you want to focus on Ergun, focus on the fact that he has taken ownership of his actions. My question to you in comment #7 is a valid question in this particular situation. We have one brother that publicly stated that which was not true. That brother repented. We have another brother that has spoken publicly that which is not true. He has not repented. Yet, he has continuously attacked the former although he has repented and made a public apology to those to whom he is accountable.
The focus must be upon the whole and not the part in this situation. Does not Matthew 7:1-5 seem to be applicable in the case of the brother who is unrepentant in his lying, yet still accuses his brother who has repented of the same sin?
Hi C.B.
A suggestion: it would be a good idea to give Louise the sites that informed you about Caner’s speeches to the student body.
L’s,
You were given those sites. You give then to Louise. It seems to me that you also have refused to give grace to Butch even though you were well informed he had repented and publicly apologized.
You may remember that I asked you and others a while back, What more do you wan the man to do? Would you like for him to be nailed to a cross? Would that satisfy you all?
L’s, that did not seem to have much effect on you when I originally asked it a few weeks back. What effect does it have on you now?
What more do you want Ergun Caner to do?
Frankly L’s, your “suggestion” smacks with a degree of hypocrisy. Maybe Matthew 7:1-5 is applicable in your case also.
L’s,
You not only refused to give grace to Butch, you went straight into a feeding frenzy when Wade posted on Emir with the rest of the sharks. You did not seem to care that the man’s brother had been beaten down and treated as an outcast of the faith. You just swam to with the speed of a Great White to “new meat” in the water.
Where was your mercy and grace then L’s?
I thought it would be nice for you to do that for Louise ‘kindness of C.B.’.
I’m sorry you are offended by my suggestion.
Hi C.B.
The last thing I posted was on Wade’s blog and I put it here for you to see. I don’t believe it falls into the category of a ‘feeding frenzy’:
“Christiane said…
Hi ROBIN FOSTER,
You wrote ‘Biblical grace forgives
AND MOVES ON.’
I thought about that for a long time. Something about that phrase ‘moving on’ stopped me cold.
If someone is ‘in trouble’ and does something wrong, they can be forgiven of the wrong that they did, yes.
But do we then act as if ‘nothing happened’?
I think in real Christian ‘community, people who are ‘in trouble’ and who are breaking the Laws of Christ and shaming Him with hypocrisy;
these people need the care of their community in order to heal of their own wounds, before they act out again.
For their brothers to ‘move on’ as though ‘all is well’, that is not an option, but a lack of responsibility to the fallen Christian brother.
The only kind of effective ‘moving on’ would be a venture into a healing, nurturing and compassionate treatment of someone who is needing the guidance of Christian care. That kind of ‘moving on’ looks past the sin, and focuses on the sinner and leads him back to the Lord again,
by the strength of the witness of those Christians who are ‘family’ to the one who has fallen. Then the person will know he has a HOME among these witnesses;
and will not be abandoned (as Ted Haggard was) or hidden away as an embarassment (as the old biography of Ergun Caner was).
“I have come home at last! This is my real country! I belong here. This is the land I have been looking for all my life, though I never knew it till now…Come further up, come further in!”
— C.S. Lewis (The Last Battle)
The Christian mystery is a strange one: how DO we love one another as He loved us?
We weren’t abandoned. We weren’t left unaided. So we can’t do that to one another, can we?
Mr. Foster, calling attention to hypocrisy is not a bad thing at all.
The ‘bad thing’ is the abandonment of a person, or the ‘hiding away’ of a person’s biography, instead of giving healing care and rehabilitation to a fallen brother, who has a home as a member of a Christian family ‘in community’.
Liberty University needs to help Dr. Caner now, instead of ‘hiding away’ information that is an embarrassment to their image. They are his ‘family’. He needs them now.
Then ‘moving on’ will be a journey ‘further up and further in’ to the Kingdom for all concerned.f
In Christ, peace
Christiane
Thu May 06, 11:35:00 AM 2010 “
In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
I am stunned. I have followed this controversy for over two months. The evidence against Caner is overwhelming. There are court documents, audio, video, and printed matter that all prove Caner has lied on many points.
Why were none of the real issues addressed? It looks like just another whitewash designed to deceive.
I pray you all will open your eyes to God’s Truth.
Richard McGough
Richard,
None of the evidence has proven that Dr. Caner is a “fake ex-Muslim.” That was Mr. Khan’s contention. All his videos mocked Dr. Caner as a fake ex-Muslim. Court documents have proven that Dr. Caner indeed was brought up a Muslim. Mr. Khan’s original assertion has been debunked. Now he wants us to focus on the lies and inconsistencies in the testimonies but as Christians we should not forget that when any believer asks for forgiveness, we believe that he or she is forgiven. Even God forgets their sins and ours. Liberty University has forgiven him. Why don’t we set aside our pride and forgive this brother? Why is it so hard?
Hussein
Richard McGough,
God’s truth is in the redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the cross from sinful scum like you and me.
God’s truth plainly states that when men repent, the grace of God wrought through the blood of Christ on the cross is sufficient for their forgiveness.
Ergun Caner has repented. He apologized to those to whom he is accountable. What more do you want?
Forgiveness seems to be a word that many cant seem to find in their hatred for the brothers Caner.
Louise, why do you come down so hard on the Caners? Do you even know them? Are you an alumnus of Liberty? or a big donor to Liberty? I’m just wondering why all the interest in the Dr.’s Caner?
Christiane, I’m wondering the same about you. Richard McCough?
I mean, if some President of Evangelical College in Podunk, Indiana told exaggerations, and whatever else…I really doubt that I would get so obsessed on him, like yall are about Dr. Caner. Also, I really doubt if yall would be so obsessed with him, as well. Why all the interest in the brothers Caner?
David
PS. Something really great happened tonight. I went out visiting prospects. I led a lady to the Lord. Her husband wasnt ready to be saved, but she was ready. I also got to share the Gospel with another couple…that werent ready to be saved, but they listened and they talked to me for a while. I was busy trying to win people to Jesus, and I was trying to fulfill the Great Commission; instead of trying to debate with Dr. Caner, or trying to stir up a lynch mob against another brother in Christ. Maybe if everyone became more concerned with winning the lost to Jesus, they wouldnt be so obsessed, and waste so much, trying to “get” a Brother in Christ. Maybe they wouldnt even be so concerned about trying to criticize his every word…every nuance…every action…even to the point of trying to see if he was really tazered, or not. lol. Good grief.
Vol,
Some of these people have spent more time on this issue than the secular press did on the Fort Hood Massacre. In the beginning I would have argued with you that they were not driven by hate. But now, it seems that it is nothing but hate that drives some of them.
Yet, I can’t help but wonder if it is a hate for the Caners, or maybe something more that drives people like Debbie and Wade in this relentless persecution. Maybe persecution is not the right word. Maybe we should call it an inquisition.
cb scott wrote: Ergun Caner has repented. He apologized to those to whom he is accountable. What more do you want?
Hello cb scott,
Thank you for working with me on this. But there are two problems with your assertion. First, I listened to many of Ergun’s sermons. He lied TO ME. He lied to every person who has ever heard those sermons. Therefore, he needs to repent to the people that he has sinned against.
Second, there is a huge misconception about the people that are calling for Ergun to publicly repent. Over on the FBC Jax blog, a use “Slow to speak” made this comment:
“Why don’t you put him on a Cross? He is absolutely being condemned for what he has already admitted is…”misspeaking”. What do you want from him….his soul?”
Here is my response:
Unfortunately, the statement to which you refer was not a repentance in any sense of the word. On the contrary, it contained an additional lie when he said that he “never intentionally misled anyone.” So it is worse than no repentance. It added to his sin.
Now as for your question “What do you want from him….his soul?”
BINGO!
That’s exactly what I want! Can you imagine what life must be like for him right now? Living in sin, alienated from God and God’s people? He has been caught in a mountain of lies but seems unable to repent. My soul ACHES for his soul. I know what sin is. We all know. We all have lived under its power. And so we all should have one desire – to retrieve the SOUL OF ERGUN CANER from power of darkness, sin and lies!
Please work with us on this. Think of the glory of God that would be revealed if Ergun stood up and really told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
We are in a battle for the soul of Ergun Caner. How any Christian can fail to see this is beyond me.
In the grace of him who saved me,
Richard
Richard,
So, you’re involved in all of this for Ergun Caner’s soul? Because you care so much for him? Because you just want to help him?
Brother, please, never try to help me. Okay? Leave that up to people, who really love and care for me.
David
David Worley,
Not only am I fighting for the soul of Ergun Caner – I am fighting for the soul of Christianity, which once had many shining saints who stood tall bearing witness to the Way of Truth.
Have you looked at the evidence? If not, why are you commenting? If so, why are you not calling for his public repentance?
If Ergun had repented, he could speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth with great simplicity and clarity. He could put an end to all of this with just his word. Why can’t he do that? And how can a man who can not publicly speak the truth be a minister of the Gospel?
Richard,
Let’s see, the evidence? First, this all came out that Dr. Caner was never a Muslim.
Thus, we have SB pastor calling Dr. Caner a fake because he got his information from a Muslim whose sole purpose is to discredit those who have converted to Christianity. Then someone hires a PI to get court documents of Dr. Caner’s divorce. Let me ask, has anyone ever thought of the pain that the Caner’s are going through having to relive this time in their lives again? But, let’s not allow grace to get in the way of someone’s personal vendetta. The investigation proves that they were Muslims as the Caner Father fought for the boys to be raised Muslim. When that proves to be something no one was expecting the tune changed to “they were not devout Muslims”. However, phone calls were made to the Mosque in question and it was affirmed they were certainly brought to the mosque by their Father and raised as devout Muslims.
How does the Calvinist/Muslim coalition still try to prove this as false? They take pictures that MoKhan produces and they paste them out there saying these Caner brothers were not devout Muslims. However, the pictures were proven as not containing the Caner brothers. But what does that do for the argument? Everyone disregards all of that so they can continue to attack Dr. Ergun Caner. Then they draw in Dr. Emir Caner and try to say that he was never a devout Muslim.
All of these “facts” are taken from a Muslim whose soul purpose is to tear down the body of Christ. What happens? Those Calvinist that were upset that the Caners would not debate them have joined arms with unbelievers to attack a believer. For what? They are jealous of the positions God has exalted the Caners to.
Blessings,
Tim
Richard McGough,
Maybe we are missing something here. The man has stated his repentance before God has occurred. We know he has publicly apologized.
What maybe we don not understand is you definition of repentance as it relates to the Christian faith. Would you mind sharing what you consider Christian repentance to be?
Also Richard, if you think you are fighting for the soul of Christianity in all of this, you have very much missed you mission and calling in life. The place of God has already been filled. Jesus established the “soul of Christianity” when he defeated death, hell and the grave forevermore.
Your role is more “earthly” at the present. For you are just a man as am I. We must take the evidence of Ergun’s repentance and apology at face value until he proves his repentance and apology to be false.
Therefore, I ask you; Do you have evidence that Ergun Caner has made one false statement about his life since his testimony of his repentance to our God and his public apology to those to whom he is accountable has occurred?
Richard, I can give you evidence of a man who did say he would close his blog forever to the Caner issue and then he posted twice relating to the Caner issue within a week’s time. That man is Wade Burleson. You can read the evidence of his falsehood on his personal blog. Go read it. Then come and tell me if you believe his testimony to be one of grace and truth.
Tom Chantry wrote a piece on the situation that was called ‘compassionate’ by the archivist at SBTS. I think you will agree:
http://crbcviews.blogspot.com/2010/04/stephen-ambrose-ergun-caner-and.html
The problem may not have been one of ‘anger’ and ‘unforgiveness’ expressed, so much as an inability to encompass the humanity and the sad consequences written in a compassionate way and yet with completeness, when attempting to discuss the ‘situation’.
Tom Chantry’s essay helps to show that compassion and thoroughness are not mutually exclusive in this matter.
I think ‘the situation’ needs an openness to discussion that IS compassionate, so that the healing CAN begin. I really believe this.
Attempts by concerned people at ‘covering up’ and ‘keeping people quiet’ and ‘attacking the messengers’ just all made it so much worse. I know it wasn’t meant to do that. I know that people wanted to help Dr. Caner. But they did it wrong.
Tom Chantry’s essay is worth reading. I hope you all agree. And I hope it helps to start a healing discussion that is much needed.
I’m sorry. That archivist that commented on the Chantry essay was:
Jim Lutzweiler
Archivist
Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary
Wake Forest, NC 27587
I think that SBTS is not the same as Southeastern.
Sorry for error. Please forgive.
Christianne,
No one, I repeat No one, has tried to cover up anything. No one, and I repeat, No One has tried to circle the wagons. This has come to the public attention because of a pastor that in 2006 told other pastors and was actively trying to prevent Dr. Ergun Caner from being in leadership positions in the SBC. This pastor has pushed this issue more and more. He even said he was going to stop speaking about the issue and within two days has begun again attacking Dr. Ergun Caner and now Liberty U.
Look, I am trying to be as graceful as I know how. But, this is about jealousy run rampant because the hyper-Calvinist did not get what they wanted out of the CT article. Even the journalist that investigated and placed an article in a national publication called it like it was–bloggers attacking Dr. Caner as a result of a Calvinist/Muslim coalition formed. The author of the article has no dog in this fight. He was petitioned by the pastor that has been against Dr. Caner since 2006. This article would have never been written had the pastor not contacted the journalist. Thus, the hired gun journalist found that it was bloggers linked to a Calvinist/Muslim coalition that was on the attack trying to take down Dr. Ergun Caner.
Blessings,
Tim
I am stunned. I have obviously followed this from the beginning and still cannot fathom the motivation for ‘redeeming’ Dr. Caner. I am convinced that those at the head of this will not relent until he renounces any Islamic affiliation, pays restitution for personal injury, and fully accepts the tenets of Dortian Calvinism.
CB, keep asking those good questions.
Hi. Is this the Twilight Zone? Dr. Caner has repented per his statement that he had misspoken? He’s not trying to cover anything up? This is surreal! Have you seen the videos and legal documents? He told bald-faced, over the top lies about growing up in Turkey and learning to speak English over there by watching American t.v. shows. He stated numerous times both in churches and in print (his bio on the Liberty site) that he moved to the U.S. a full ten years after he actually did. And that is just the tip of the iceberg. It doesn’t matter if Khan lied. Caner is condemned by his own mouth.
Incidentally, I am not on a crusade to destroy Caner’s life. At first, I was really giving him the benefit of the doubt, but the evidence is irrefutable. My desire is to see him repent and be restored. If something doesn’t happen soon, he is going to take Liberty’s credibility down with his own. It blows my mind that they have not acted. Anyone who cares about this institution should be gravely concerned. Stop playing games here! This is not about Caner’s ideology. It is about integrity. Wake up!
@Tim Rogers
Hi Tim,
Thank you for working with me on this. You wrote: “Let’s see, the evidence? First, this all came out that Dr. Caner was never a Muslim.”
Unfortunately, your answer to that point and the others that followed have little to do with the real problem we are all wrestling with. They are pretty inconsequential. I could accept everything you said but the problem would remain that Ergun willfully and repeatedly lied about coming to America as a teen who grew up in Turkey as a member of the “Islamic Youth Jihad” trained to “to do that which was done on 11 September.” Those, and countless other lies and misrepresentations are the real issue.
If you would like to discuss the hard evidence that is at the center of this controversy, perhaps we could make some progress.
Many blessings in Christ the Lord,
Richard
L’s,
The “last thing” you posted is not the “only thing” you have posted on this matter since Ergun repented and apologized and we both know that to be true. Hypocrisy creeps into your comments once again there, L’s.
So again I ask you; What do you want from Ergun Caner?
Why have you not acknowledged his apology? You continue to be in the support group for the merciless attacks of Wade Burleson and Debbie Kaufman on this repentant and broken man. Why is that L’s?
Richard,
When did Dr. Caner say those things? You fail to take into account that he has stated his regret to speaking things that were over the top when he should have been more precise. What you fail to remember is that Dr. Caner was raised by a father who was devout and was so devout that he went to court repeatedly to get his sons raised as Muslims. Dr. Caner stated specifically he was regretful and would do better in the future to speak more precisely concerning his testimony.
Now, Richard, either we can keep pulling past statements that he has already acknowledged that he was not precise with, or we can accept his statement and move on. That is, unless you want CB to take his Bowie knife and deliver Dr. Caner’s soul to you on a silver platter.
Blessings,
Tim
Brother JR,
I will refer you to my comment to Brother Richard. Let me also say that Dr. Caner may not use the exact words one may desire to hear him say, but he has acknowledged his transgression. LU has investigated and signed off with a public statement. The issue is about Khan’s lies trying to tear down the body of Christ. Why are we not able to move on?
Blessings,
Tim
@cb scott
Hi cb,
Many blessings to you in Christ Jesus our Lord.
You said:
Maybe we are missing something here. The man has stated his repentance before God has occurred. We know he has publicly apologized.
Please post a link to the statement of repentance. The only statement I am aware of that even approached a “repentance” included the assertion that he “never intentionally misled anyone.” That is not a repentance, that is another lie.
Next, you said:
What maybe we don not understand is you definition of repentance as it relates to the Christian faith. Would you mind sharing what you consider Christian repentance to be?
I shared it in my previous post. If a Christian knows he has wronged another person, he needs to drop everything and “be reconciled to his brother.” As it is written:
Matthew 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
How is it possible that I need to teach you this?
And you said:
Therefore, I ask you; Do you have evidence that Ergun Caner has made one false statement about his life since his testimony of his repentance to our God and his public apology to those to whom he is accountable has occurred?
Again, I have not seen a repentance. Please post the link so we can end this dispute.
And you said:
Richard, I can give you evidence of a man who did say he would close his blog forever to the Caner issue and then he posted twice relating to the Caner issue within a week’s time. That man is Wade Burleson. You can read the evidence of his falsehood on his personal blog. Go read it. Then come and tell me if you believe his testimony to be one of grace and truth.
I read that a few days ago, and when I saw it I thought thought it was pretty foolish and premature. But we all make mistakes. If he wants to return to blogging on this topic, all he need do is publicly repent, explain that he was wrong to make that statement and that he will try with all his heart to do better in the future. As you can see, I am holding him to exactly the same standard as Ergun. If Ergun would publicly repent and tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, his soul would be restored to full fellowship with God and His people. That is my prayer. I trust it is yours.
Many blessings in Christ Jesus our Lord,
Richard
@Tim Rogers
Hi Tim,
God’s peace be with you.
You wrote: Now, Richard, either we can keep pulling past statements that he has already acknowledged that he was not precise with, or we can accept his statement and move on. That is, unless you want CB to take his Bowie knife and deliver Dr. Caner’s soul to you on a silver platter.
Please post the link to his repentance. That should settle the issue.
Many blessings in Christ Jesus the Lord,
Richard
I don’t doubt that Dr. Caner was a Muslim. I grew up in a Mormon sect and I can’t remember every single thing I was taught. I don’t think this is the real issue.
I believe Richard has put forth the true concerns in this issue. We actually talked about this situation tonight in the my ethics class in the realm of embellishing one’s testimony. A few people in class who are not-Calvinists were talking about it during our break. One person even brought up that they were not even close to a Calvinist, yet still has many problems with Dr. Caner’s biography given the evidence in this article, for example. It was really weird because I had no idea anyone had been following the story.
I understand people are saying he repented. I have to ask, repented of what exactly? Vague generalities? What is in question is the biographical discrepancies as noted in the above link.
Can anyone explain those discrepancies?
The legal documents seem to put Dr. Caner as coming to the USA at around 2 or 3 yrs old. It also seems that his father had limited access to him starting around 8 years old when his mother got full custody. It can also be seen that he never left the USA once moving here at this young age.
All of this (and more) goes to the credibility of his testimony of his past. These are probably some of the reasons some Muslims are questioning him. This alleged history is also probably why he was such a sought after speaker. There is much more here than simple misstatements.
If Dr. Caner has built his ministry on these biographical statements for approximately 9 years is it proper to accept a vague apology and just move on as if it never happened? I have to wonder if any of you who counsel people caught in sin if general repentance and apology are acceptable. It seems that if something is built on falsehood then those falsehoods should be removed it should be re-built on truth.
It is also very interesting that, after doing some checking for themselves, Focus on the Family thought that there was enough of a problem that they pulled Dr. Caner’s testimony that recently aired.
Why do I think that Dr. Ergun Caner could meet with some people in this comment thread, and at other places, and personally confess his sins to them, on bended knee; and they would still say it wasnt good enough; not sincere enough; didnt cover everything; etc.; etc.; etc.
Wow.
David
Brother David,
Why do I think that Dr. Ergun Caner would never meet with some people in this comment thread, and at other places, and personally or even over email confess his sins to them; and he would not even give Christianity Today a response to the allegations. He still won’t say what is true or false; when he moved to America; How he watched Dukes of Hazzard before it ever aired; If he lived in NY; If he lived in Turkey; etc.; etc.; etc.
Wow. ;)
Mark
This comment thread, and the posts of other bloggers with an obsessed agenda, just show the lengths that some people will go to “get” those people that they dont like. Especially if that someone spoke against their theology. To see the traffic in those blogs, and in this one, concerning this issue is very telling about the hearts of those people, who think that they’re the knights on white horses.
David
David Worley said: This comment thread, and the posts of other bloggers with an obsessed agenda, just show the lengths that some people will go to “get” those people that they dont like. Especially if that someone spoke against their theology. To see the traffic in those blogs, and in this one, concerning this issue is very telling about the hearts of those people, who think that they’re the knights on white horses.
Hi David,
I can’t say your comment taught me anything about the hearts of others, but I certainly learned a lot about yours.
Richard
Hey Richard,
Aint it interesting that you and soome others have commented in this blog for the first time? I believe? And,what subject brought yall over here? What issue made you want to come to SBC Today and comment? What? Drum roll here…..ta ta ta ta ta ta….ding…Dr. Ergun Caner.
Do yall think about anything else? Do yall have a life outside of Dr. Caner? Do yall talk about anything else?
David
Brother Mark,
The emphasis I placed above is something that needs to be addressed. The issue is that Dr. Caner was accused of being a fake former Muslim but one that is a Muslim and picked up by a Calvinist SB pastor who tweeted through implication that he was a fake. Thus, the Calvinist/Muslim coalition was birthed. This has been proven false. However, neither the Muslim nor the Calvinist pastor have addressed their untruth advanced for others to run with. What do they do? The Muslim then says Dr. Caner was not a devout Muslim and another Calvinist, except this time hyper-Calvinist pastor, picks up the drum beat and uses the Muslim’s doctored copyright violated videos as his source. However, no one calls into account that activity. What happens? Everyone jumps on the band wagon.
Before this comment stream advances any further we need to deal with the first false accusation thrown at Dr. Caner. So, Mark, where is your call for the leader of the Founders movement to repent of his intentional mis-truth statement? Where is your call for repentance of the hyper-Calvinist in Arizona for his use of violated copyright material to push forward that mis-truth? Dr. Caner was proven to be a devout former Muslim by the court records but not one person has called those pushing these non-truths to repent. Some went so far as to call the Mosque and ask question concerning the Caner’s late father. They found out the full devotion to Islam that he held and did not say anything further, but kept up the drum beat of the Dr. Caner brothers being fake.
Now lets talk about Dr. Caner’s statement of contrition. He placed it on his blog and he publicly spoke about it at LU to 6000 college kids. Mark, when was the last time you spoke to 6000 college kids? I can tell you that I haven’t spoken to that many in my entire ministry. God has placed Dr. Caner there to speak every Wednesday evening to them. Though I am limited in my influence and ability to interact with college age kids, one thing I have learned. A college aged kid can spot a fake a mile away. Dr. Caner was contrite and spoke to them from his heart concerning the situation. After this the CT article came out and in that article LU made an official statement, by Elmer Townes no less. Do you know who Elmer Townes is? He is co-founder (can you say brain child behind Jerry Falwell Sr. vision) of LU. He said in that article that an investigation was conducted. Are you now going to accuse Dr. Townes of making a false statement to a public national media outlet? Or will you be like one female blogger and accuse CT of lying and then linking to a Muslim’s website for her facts? Also, the link you stated is one to Tom Chantry. The problem with that article is he relates Dr. Caner with the late Stephen Ambrose. Why is that a problem you may ask. Stephen Ambrose was discoverd to have never interviewed Eisenhower. Dr. Caner has not been proven to be a fake former Muslim. So, as I said in the beginning of this comment, let’s deal with that accusation first. Do you or do you not believe that Dr. Ergun Caner was a former devout Muslim?
Blessings,
Tim
CB,
You ask a good question in “what more do you want?” Our Calvinist-Muslim Inquisitors appear to me to be in line with Calvin’s attitude towards Servetus: “for if he came, as far as my authority goes, I would not let him leave alive.” Though Ergun did nothing as egregious as Servetus, he at least has repented. But that does not excuse Calvin for his sin. Neither does it here.
Thank God we do not burn people at the stake anymore, because I think nothing less would satisfy this puerile inquisition.
Blessings,
Ron P.
David
Back at comment #24, allow me to praise the Lord that another soul has been added to population of heaven. Thank you for your faithfulness!
Robin
To all:
Folks continue to assert that Ergun has given a statement of repentance, but not one person has posted a link to it. Why is that? Does it really exist? If so, where is it?
Blessings in the name of Christ,
Richard
Richard,
3 questions.
1. If light of your statement, where you said that you see what kind of man that I am by my comments, what kind of a man do you think that I am? I would like to know?
2. Are you calling all of these Brothers in Christ liars, who have repeatedly told you that Dr. Ergun Caner has made a public apology for his actions? Are you calling them all liars?
3. Where are the apologies of all the bloggers, who bought into the lie that Dr. Ergun Caneer was a fake Muslim? They said these things about Dr. Caner….so, where are their public apologies? And, will you go to the blogs of these people and demand an apology? If you dont, wouldnt that be kind of hypocritical?
David
Richard,
I have read his apology. How long is he required to keep it up to satisfy the inquisitors? Please explain why anyone in their right mind would help those who would parse every syllable of every word just for the purpose of further attacking him? Not me! I would much rather reach out to him in brotherly love with my extended hand.
Blessings,
Ron P.
Hi David,
Thank you for your patience with me. I don’t know if you believe it, but I am a man like you and am very aware of my own weaknesses and shortcomings. I hope you take that into consideration when responding to my posts. If you find any error in what I write, I will joyfully repent so my soul will be free and we can move on in genuine fellowship with each other and God.
Now as for your questions:
1. If light of your statement, where you said that you see what kind of man that I am by my comments, what kind of a man do you think that I am? I would like to know?
I left that unstated to encourage you to discover it for yourself by reflecting on your own words. It is much better for a man to see his own errors than for another to point them out. I have no desire to offend, so it probably would be best if we just dropped it. Please accept my apology for responding the way I did. I hold no judgment against you.
2. Are you calling all of these Brothers in Christ liars, who have repeatedly told you that Dr. Ergun Caner has made a public apology for his actions? Are you calling them all liars?
No, I am not calling them liars. I am simply asking for the evidence. If Ergun has made a public apology then there should be some record of it. That’s all I asked for. How can we settle this issue if no one can provide Ergun’s public statement of repentance? Did he repent of the nine years he deliberately deceived people in the name of Christ? If so, then please post the evidence.
3. Where are the apologies of all the bloggers, who bought into the lie that Dr. Ergun Caneer was a fake Muslim? They said these things about Dr. Caner….so, where are their public apologies? And, will you go to the blogs of these people and demand an apology? If you dont, wouldnt that be kind of hypocritical?
I have read apologies and clarifications on that point from James White and others. And if there is some hypocrisy in all this we should not be surprise since this is a passionate dispute between humans. And I am confident that I could cite a pound of hypocrisy amongst Caner’s defenders for every ounce found amongst those calling for his repentance. But that is not a profitable path for this discussion, is it? There is only one issue. THE EVIDENCE. Everything else is a strategy to divert from the truth. And that is what I find so deeply disturbing – Christians actively seeking to avoid the truth is not a pretty sight.
Many blessings in the Grace of God,
Richard
Richard,
All of these men say that they saw it. They are all saying that they read it. There’s the evidence…eyewitness evidence. Will you accept this evidence?
Secondly, where are the links to the apologies of all of the bloggers, who falsely accused Dr. Ergun Caner of being a false Muslim? I would like to see them. Where is Wade’s and Debbie’s and James White’s and all the others apologies for falsely accusing this Brother in Christ? Please give us links.
David
Tim Rogers:
A couple of quick points of clarification.
(a) Just because material is under a copyright does not prevent people from making fair use of it. See here: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html
(b) Dr. White’s use of the material for criticism in context of illustration and comment seems to be a classic example of fair use.
If you have some reason for thinking otherwise, by all means please say so.
-TurretinFan
“Are you now going to accuse Dr. Townes of making a false statement to a public national media outlet?”
The comment attributed to Townes in the CT article about the allegations not being able to stand up in court does not appear to be correct. People have video and audio recordings of Dr. Caner saying what Dr. Caner said. They have court records as well. It’s unclear how anyone could reasonably think allegations with that kind of evidence would not stand up in court.
That’s not to say that Townes was lying – just that he doesn’t appear to understand the issues. That suggests that if any investigation was done, it was either not very thorough or Townes wasn’t well apprised of it. Of course, it is possible that Townes was just lying, but we shouldn’t leap to that conclusion. The easier explanation is that he just was not well informed about the situation.
-TurretinFan
Hi Ron,
You said: I have read his apology. How long is he required to keep it up to satisfy the inquisitors? Please explain why anyone in their right mind would help those who would parse every syllable of every word just for the purpose of further attacking him? Not me! I would much rather reach out to him in brotherly love with my extended hand.
Have we forgotten the glory of real repentance? What it looks like, what it feels like, what fruit it bears? Has not every Christian experienced it, and witnessed it in others? It begins with the knowledge that we have sinned against God and our fellow man. Our heart begins to ache as if it would be crushed in the cold, dark grip of sin. And then the grace of God enters in and a fountain of living water springs up and bursts out in a flood of tears and we declare I AM SORRY! Please forgive me … thank you for forgiving me, my Lord and my God. My Savior. The deepest sorrow becomes our greatest joy. We are free! It’s like taking our first breath after nearly drowning. The angels of heaven sing. Laughter breaks forth upon the earth. Men that were once enemies are now reconciled. Our faces shine with the light of God and the demonstration of the Gospel of Christ. We gaze with perfect love into the open and honest eyes of our brothers and sisters as we rejoice together. God’s glory is manifest upon this earth.
Has this happened yet with Ergun Caner? If not, then he has yet to repent.
It is a dark day if we have forgotten the real meaning repentance. There is no Gospel without it.
Richard
“Now, Richard, either we can keep pulling past statements that he has already acknowledged that he was not precise with, or we can accept his statement and move on.”
If it is the case that Mr. X says, “I was born in Ankara and lived most of my life along the Iraqi border,” and if in fact Mr. X was born in Sweden and lived most of his life in Ohio, calling that first statement “not precise” is (in my opinion) ludicrous. Call it what it is, and let Mr. X repent of what he did, which is not simply to make a slightly inaccurate statement.
-TurretinFan
Factor 3 and 4 of the Copyright Law pertaining to Fair Use show clearly that one CANNOT take the copyrighted material out of its context and whatever a criticism CANNOT negatively affect “the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work.” These two factors justify the shutting down of Mo Khan’s YouTube account because it violated Fair Use.
Mr. Wario,
How did Mr. Khan’s criticism either take the material out of its context and or negatively affect “the potential market for, or value of, the copyrighted work”?
-TurretinFan
Hi RICHARD McGOUGH,
The men who have said that they saw an ‘apology’ printed it on this site together with the original web site which shows the actual apology.
Unfortunately, if you ‘click’ on that web site, the apology has been removed. What remains is a text below that site. Here is the reference for you. These men DID truly see something, they are not lying to you, but the ‘original’ for what ever reason (?) has been eradicated. This is strange to me, because I would think that it would have been more credible to leave the original apology up for people to see, like yourself and so many others, who are puzzled as to why so many ‘sources’ have been taken down.
Here is the reference to the text that remains:
http://sbctoday.blogspot.com/2010/02/dr-ergun-caner-responds.html
I can appreciate your confusion, but I do know that these men are not liars, although I believe that they are not considering all of their comments from a wide-enough perspective. They are trying to help Dr. Caner, but it’s not very effective the way it is now being done. Hopefully, that will change, for Dr. Caner’s sake.
TurretinFan:
You need to consult an intellectual property lawyer on that one because as a layperson, I see it in factors 3 and 4. Mo Khan did not have anything to say of his own other than repeat the videos without even a voice over. So, a lawyer might help you with the answers.
hhttp://www.lawfirms.com/resources/intellectual-property/copyrights/guide-to-copyright-law.htm
You can find a link to Ergun Caner’s so-called Apology, via my blog (link). As I say at that link, since Dr. Caner has withdrawn his so-called Apology, it is not really worth dwelling on the matter.
-TurretinFan
“You need to consult an intellectual property lawyer on that one because as a layperson, I see it in factors 3 and 4. Mo Khan did not have anything to say of his own other than repeat the videos without even a voice over. ”
You made the claim, so I was asking you to justify it. I saw a 17+ part series from Mr. Khan that contained lots of comments (I didn’t watch all the parts, but the parts I watched had lots of comments).
To some of the people in here talking about Dr. Caner’s apology..What has he done to you? that would make you feel like you deserve an apology? He made a public apology? He apologized to the students at Liberty? So, why do you, personally, feel that he needs to make an apology to you?
Also, Richard, you’re not the judge of another man’s sincerity in his repentance. You cant see into his heart. You are not the Holy Spirit.
David
Turretfan,
Would you admit that Khan, and others, lied about Dr. Caner being a fake Muslim?
David
“Would you admit that Khan, and others, lied about Dr. Caner being a fake Muslim?”
I don’t just admit that Khan’s claim is false, I am one of the few people who has publicly defended Dr. Caner against that false accusation. Khan has a section of his site where he tries to respond to me. Dr. Caner is a real ex-Muslim.
-TurretinFan
TurretinFan,
Where is your call for repentance to the pastors still using Khan’s false claim attacking Dr. Caner. Before we deal with anything else let’s deal with that accusation.
Tim
I would like to echo Tim’s sentiments. Turretinfan, have you called upon White, Wade, Debbie, and all the others to apologize for falsely accusing Dr. Caner like you’ve called upon Dr. Caner to apologize?
David
Christiane,
In your previous comment you related to the length that an apology needed to be up. Interesting. It was up several days. It is on my blog. It is here.
Why should someone need to leave something up for “x” amount of days?
I do believe all has been done and all proof that needs to be given has been done.
Where is the call for Repentance from those who have lied?
I’m not aware of any false accusations from Dr. White. If you can point me to one, I’d be much obliged. I don’t know who “Wade” is. I have attempted to correct (in the comment box) one erroneous criticism I found on Debbie’s site.
I have also defended Dr. Caner with respect to the claim that his “Possum Kill, NC” was a lie. Perhaps that is something that “Wade” said? I’m not sure.
As far as I can tell, all of Dr. White’s accusations, even the most serious accusations, are true. No one from Caner’s side has even tried to demonstrate otherwise, as far as I’m aware. If you are aware of such an instance, please point it out to me.
By the way, even if I were hugely inconsistent and only complained when Caner said something that isn’t true, that shouldn’t really matter as far as it pertains to Caner’s need to repent. Right? If I were a bad guy, Caner would still need to be responsible for his own statements.
- TurretinFan
Bro. Tim,
I’d first like to point out something I missed earlier. Bro. Hussein even considers Dr. Caner to not be telling the truth.
I also did not hear Bro. Hussein defending Caner as a former “devout” Muslim though he may. I don’t know.
I do believe Dr. Caner was a former Muslim. Was Dr. Caner a “devout” Muslim? I’m not sure how to answer this. Can you define what a “devout Muslim” is? See, since the biographical discrepancies have come out it’s hard to know what Caner’s foundation actually is. The level of believability of one being “devout” changes when the story goes from growing up Muslim in another country until 15 yrs old to coming to America at ~3 yrs old, parents divorcing at ~8 (if my math is correct) with the non-Muslim getting custody and never living in another country since.
I say the mother was a non-Muslim because Emir states that she became a hippy upon moving to America. According to court documents as part of the April 14, 1978 separation agreement the boys were to be raised in the Islamic faith. However, on June 8, 1978 the court on allowed for religious training through each parent according to each parent’s desires during the time of their custody. Ergun’s father had five weeks per year and every other weekend to train Ergun in the Islamic faith. The rest of the time, Ergun and his brothers were in the custody of their mother, Monica.
Would you mind explaining how Dr. Caner was proven to be a devout former Muslim by the court records?
TurretinFan has answered the copyright charge which I am unaware of. He has also answered concerning Dr. Townes. Even people in my class and the teaching assistant could not make sense of Dr. Townes statements. They seemed to think he did not understand the issues at hand. Given this was an ethics class, the class and professor thought that if the allegations are true it most certainly is a moral issue.
A girl in class pointed out something I was not aware of. She asked how Caner as a Sunni Muslim could attend a Shiite Muslim Youth group. She thought that those two groups would not do such a thing. I wasn’t sure how to answer her.
BTW, Where did Ascol state a mis-truth?
And I just know saw TurretinFan’s comment on repentance and accusations come through – what he said.
Hi TIM G. (are you Mr. Guthrie ?)
I do not know WHY original sources were removed. I do not understand the thinking behind it.
The only site I question the removal of was the Ankerberg interview.
LYDIA, on Debbie’s site, asked about that, as to why an evangelist would ‘copyright’ their work. It’s a good question. And I have no answer for it that makes the least amount of sense in the world of those who advocate the spreading of the Good News.
Sites have simply ‘gone away’. So many.
Better to have left them up. Their removal speaks volumes, I’m afraid, and has only added to the impression of a cover-up.
“Lies’ told by others? Did someone lie about Caner lying? If they did that, yes, repentance would be in order. You can look at that BOTH ways, Tim. BOTH ways.
Turretinfan,
So, apparently you’re one of those who say that his apology wasnt good enough, or not long enough, or not sincere enough, or whatever?
BTW, Turretinfan, who are you? If you’re calling for truth and repentance, then why dont you tell us who you are? If you want truth, then tell us the truth about who you are? How can you call for others to speak the truth and come clean, when you’re hiding behind anonymity? Turretinfan, to be blunt with you, I dont put much stock in anonymous letters from people, who wont own up to their words, and back up what they say. So, who are you?
David
Mark,
I’m reading comment #74, and I’m thinking…”He thinks that he’s not obsessed with Caner?” lol. Wow, Dude…do you work a job anywhere? Do you have a family? lol
As far as being a devout Muslim, Tim could answer that better than me. But, I believe his Dad went to court to make sure that the Caner brothers were raised as devout Muslims. Tim, whenever you come in here, maybe you can correct me, if I’m wrong.
David
Christiane,
Copyright issues are very important in the day and age we live in. I have had several things were people have tried to take my work and make it say something I did not say. The copyright saved the original work and protected the continued message from corruption.
Very important.
Christiane:
“A copyright occurs the moment something is created – it is automatic. A copyright exists from the moment the work is actually created – i.e., when others can actually see the work, it is deemed created. While such copyrights occur automatically, there are benefits to the author of registering a copyright with the US Copyright Office that allow the author greater protection over their intellectual property.”
http://www.lawfirms.com/resources/intellectual-property/copyrights/guide-to-copyright-law.htm
“I have had several things were people have tried to take my work and make it say something I did not say.”
At first, I suspected that this might be the case with Mr. Khan – i.e. that he was taking things out of context to make them say something that they didn’t mean. However, there are a wealth of materials freely available through legitimate sites where people can check to see whether Mr. Khan’s clips etc. were in context or out of context (link to list of resources). I hope people will check for themselves, instead of just assuming that because a Muslim said it, it must be false.
His claim that Caner is a “fake ex muslim” is false. A lot of his other criticism, however, are in video clips and audio clips that you can view for yourself.
-TurretinFan
Turretinfan,
Tell us who you are. Own up to your words and accusations. Or else, you wont be able to continue to come in here and bring up serious charges against another Brother in Christ.
Who are you?
David
Christianne,
You are buying into the false accusations of MoKhan. Our Brother Hussein has already addressed his false statements and proven him to be the Islamic extremist that is using Christians to further his jihad position on Dr. Caner’s character. I have removed your comment because this blog will not support a link that goes to a Muslim website that is full of false accusations, not only against Dr. Caner, but against other former Muslims that are now Christ followers.
Turrentine,
Forget going any further with your inquisition. You will not advance this argument until you do two things. One, call on those using MoKhan’s accusations that Dr. Caner was not a Muslim, or devout Muslim, to repent of their deliberate lies they are spreading about a Brother in Christ. Two, you will identify yourself to those of us here at SBC Today. You will not call for truth in a public forum and hide behind anonymity. If you want truth, then reveal truth about yourself.
Mark,
Wouldn’t you consider a father that fights for custody of his son and in that custody battle, he documents the holidays that are Islamic that he wants his sons to be with him? Wouldn’t you consider a father that places his children into bed and asks about the scales and then whispers verse from the Koran in their ears a devout Muslim? Wouldn’t you call a father that designs Mosque’s and even has his sons enrolled in those Mosques devout? Wouldn’t you call a father that gives his sons a prayer blanket and tells them to pray five times a day when he is not around them devout? The very court documents prove it and even the CT article proves it. Now, are you questioning the CT article as to the devotedness of the Caner brothers? For example from the CT story;
You do not become an “expert” and write the books they have written if you were a “nominal” Muslim.
Now, I call you to repentence for spreading the false statement that they were not devout Muslims.
Blessings,
Tim
David: Grow up, dude. This is not about me.
-TurretinFan
Turrentin,
No, you grow up and put on your big boy britches. This is about you. You are calling for truth. Reveal who you are, or you will no longer have commenting privileges here. You are not going to call for truth and hide behind a veil.
Tim
Tim Rogers:Same answer I gave Dave. This is not about me.
-TurretinFan
Turretinfan,
I’m about as grown as I need to be. I’m 48 years old, and I’m 6’1″. I’ll guarantee you that I wiegh more than you. I’ve grown up all I can, Brother.
Now, who are you? Why are you so reluctant to reveal your identity?
David
David: I’m content to endure your and Tim’s comments against me, instead. I apologize for losing my temper with you and telling you to grow up. That was out of line, and I hope God and you will forgive me.
-TurretinFan
TFan,
How can we forgive you, when we dont even know who you are? Also, Dude, we’re not commenting against you. We’re asking you to tell your identity. When someone comes in here making the accusations that you make, and you call for someone to repent, then you at least should tell all of us who you are?
Who are you?
David
TurretinFan,
It is a simple thing to state ones name. Hiding behind a “screen name” is not good for one’s argument. If one wants truth, one needs to reveal the truth of one’s identity!
A next step would be to admit one’s true motives for continuing to press an issue that has already been solved and is growing to level of of Jerry Springer side show.
There seems to have been some sort of mistake. Here is the link that has been presented as evidence that Ergun repented:
http://sbctoday.blogspot.com/2010/02/dr-ergun-caner-responds.html
Unfortunately, that link does not indicate that Caner repented. On the contrary, it contains the outrageously blatant God-despising bald-faced lie that he “never intentionally misled anyone.”
Every person who has referenced that document as proof that Caner has repented has born false witness, either deliberately or in ignorance.
Every person who has accepted and promoted that statement as sufficient evidence of repentance is participating in Caner’s continuing nine year marathon of deception.
David and Tim: I’ve declined to give more information several times. I don’t see that changing. I think people who are reading are asking themselves why you think it matters who I am.
TurretinFan,
Your thoughts can be whatever you allow them to be. However, there is a problem with hiding your identity.
Richard,
You have once again hit on one the real issues here. What is enough and what is acceptable. Funny thing though, only God matters in the apology and “repentance” and yet maybe some of the accusers need to do the same!
Tim G: It would be logical fallacy to say that my comments are false because you don’t know my name. Maybe it makes my comments untrustworthy to some people, but you can check for yourself as I’ve encouraged people to do. You don’t have to trust me.
Richard McGough,
I asked you a question earlier in the comment thread. You may have already answered it. if so I apologize. I have not kept up with this thread today. Anyway, here is the question again:
Do you have evidence that Ergun Caner has made one false statement about his life since his testimony of his repentance to our God and his public apology to those to whom he is accountable has occurred?
TurretinFan,
You obviously do not know what I am saying. SAD!
Mr. Willis,
Do you accept that they were raised as Devout Muslims? To not do so is to ignore the evidence and to buy into the lies being spread by the “group”. All of this is clear.
I actually have proof from a man who went to the same Mosque, at the same time, that verifies they were raised as devout Muslims. MoKhan has lied and continues to do so. People have fallen victim to the lies.
I investigated and found the life of the Caners to be as they say.
“I actually have proof from a man who went to the same Mosque, at the same time, that verifies they were raised as devout Muslims. MoKhan has lied and continues to do so. People have fallen victim to the lies. I investigated and found the life of the Caners to be as they say.”
a) Where is your evidence? Saying you talked to someone is great, but it doesn’t really help us answer Mr. Khan’s false accusations against Dr. Caner.
b) Are you calling the Islamic foundation on Broad St. in Columbus, a mosque? I don’t think that’s a great idea for a couple of reasons. First, it doesn’t have a minaret (you can see pictures at the link below). Second, it doesn’t style itself a mosque (as far as I can tell).
One of the points where I defended Dr. Caner was on the issue of whether it was a lie to say that his father “built the mosque” apparently referring to the Islamic Foundation building on Broad St.
I can provide evidence of my defense. As you can see, at the following link, I posted a comment on February 24, 2010. (link to post)
The tax records confirm that the building on Broad St. was renovated in 1984, which is generally consistent with Dr. Caner’s story (although he claims to have been converted in 1982, it is reasonable that the renovation of the building may have taken a long time, or that there was a second renovation after the one his dad helped with). Calling the renovation of that building “building the mosque” might be a little imprecise, but I don’t think we can reasonably call that a lie.
- TurretinFan
Hi cb scott,
I answered your questions in Post #40.
Please read Post #89 as an important followup concerning the first question I answered in Post #40.
God’s peace be upon you.
Richard
“Elmer Towns…says the Liberty board has held an inquiry and directors are satisfied that Caner has done nothing theologically inappropriate.
“It’s not an ethical issue, it’s not a moral issue,” Towns told Christianity Today… “We give faculty a certain amount of theological leverage. The arguments of the bloggers would not stand up in court” (Christianity Today Bloggers Target Seminary President John W. Kennedy May 7, 2010).”
A good judge may ask if Towns refers to Caner’s past inconsistencies in his testimony, and therefore what repentance if any is necessary? Or, a judge may ask if Towns refers to Caner’s repentance, and therefore, how could it be significant?
Or, a judge may ask if Towns refers to Caner’s past inconsistencies and his repentance as well, and therefore is this just a continuation of “ministerial speaking” for the sake gaining additional “theological leverage?”
Brethren:
Let us be very careful when dealing with this issue. Some of you might disagree with me. I quoted this passage below when I talked with Dr. James White a few weeks ago and he dismissed it. I hold nothing against the man and do not doubt that he is a man of God. Galatians 6:1-5: 1Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. 2Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else… NIV
Muslims want this issue to drag on, and anything short of a public apology, possibly with an audio or video available, is an unacceptable to them. Since they have a lot of time and possibly money invested in this endeavor—they have tried to discredit Dr. Caner and many ex-Muslims—they want to put an “icing” on their cake with evidence. And some of us Christians are calling for the evidence of repentance. How about if we wait and see because the only way we know of a person’s repentance is through their actions? Have we forgotten what our Lord Jesus Christ said in Matthew 7:16?
Dr. Caner was born in Sweden to a devout Sunni Muslim Turkish father. His mother was Swedish but he was a Turkish citizen because he could not become a citizen of Sweden by the virtue of his birth. Children born to non-citizen fathers did not automatically become citizens. Swedish mothers were only able to pass on their citizenship after 1979. The law changed on July 1, 1979.
Dr. Caner’s mother must have been a convert to Islam to marry his father. How else would she have converted to Christianity in 1991? (Brother Mark, being “hippy upon moving to America” did not make her a non-Muslim because there is a lot of “secular” Muslim in the United States.) Even if she didn’t convert to Islam, it is perfectly fine for a Muslim man to marry a Christian or Jewish woman because the Qur’an says so in Surah 5:5. (Mr. Khan had argued that Dr. Caner’s father was not a devout Muslim because he had married a non-Muslim. Do you see how his version of the story has evolved?) Prophet Muhammad had a child by a Christian woman. His son Ibrahim was by a lady commonly referred to as Mary the Copt. Therefore, it is ridiculous that Mr. Khan claims that Dr. Caner’s father was not a devout Muslim just because he married a non-Muslim.
Recently released court documents have proven that Dr. Caner’s father was a devout Muslim. It even shows that the children were going to get Islamic education. The mother objected to it a few years later but there is no evidence that her objections were granted and the arrangements were changed.
Some bloggers have wondered how the Caner Brothers could get madrassa education when they were with their father only every other weekend. Mr. Khan wants you to believe it. One thing worth noting, most countries where Muslims are minority have madrassa on Saturdays and Sundays, especially where children go to secular schools Monday to Friday. Typical madrassa days are Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, with Friday off. It is possible that the mosque where the Caners attended had a part-time madrassa teacher—one who had a day job. That is not uncommon even these days in the United States.
Court documents have further shown that Dr. Caner’s father wanted to bring up his children as Muslims. He was a devout Muslim because he helped to build the mosque in Columbus and he died a devout Muslim as evidenced by a copy of the Qur’an he left for each of his apostate child in his will. The documents do not state when children came to the United States. They imply that the father came to the US in 1969, but they do not aver that Dr. Caner’s mother and children came in 1969.
Lastly, Brother Mark had wondered how Dr. Caner, growing up a Sunni Muslim, “could attend a Shiite Muslim Youth group.” This doesn’t surprise me because the palpable animosity or rivalry between Sunnis and Shiites is evident only in countries where one group has authority over another. Muslims are happy to see fellow Muslim in a foreign land. While I was at Hope College, I witnessed it myself. I had a friend who was from Pakistan. He was from the Ahmadiyya sect, a sect which is anathema in Pakistan. This group is persecuted with some of them even being killed. (Please do a google search and see for yourself.) Sunni students at Hope got along very well with my Ahmadiyya friend. There was no way they could fight over their differences in a foreign country where they did not even have a mosque. If it was a similar case in Columbus where Dr. Caner’s father helped to build the mosque, it was possible that Sunnis and Shiites worshipped together or held joint activities.
TurritenFan,
Once again you sidestep the issues. Your Whiteoneon ways will not work here.
The subject of this stream is the podcast. I see you want to stay far away from that. I wonder why?
TurretinFan:
“A mosque is a place of worship for followers of Islam. Muslims often refer to the mosque by its Arabic name, masjid, Arabic: ????? — Arabic pronunciation: [?mæsd??d] (pl. mas?jid, Arabic: ?????? — [mæ?sæ?d??d]). The word “mosque” in English refers to all types of buildings dedicated for Islamic worship, although there is a distinction in Arabic between the smaller, privately owned mosque and the larger, “collective” mosque (Arabic: ???? ?????, masjid j?mi‘), which has more community and social aspects.
The mosque serves as a place where Muslims can come together for salat (prayer) (Arabic: ?????, ?al?t) as well as a center for information, education, and dispute settlement. The Imam leads the prayer.
They have developed significantly from the open-air spaces that were the Quba Mosque and Al-Masjid al-Nabawi in the 7th century. Many mosques have elaborate domes, minarets, and prayer halls. Mosques originated on the Arabian Peninsula, but are now found in all inhabited continents.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque
By the way, a mosque doesn’t have to have a minaret. Muslims in American call their place of worship by other names to attract non-Muslims.
And in Qur’an chapter 17, mosque refers to a Jewish “temple” in Jerusalem. Here it is in three different versions of the Qur’an.
017.001
YUSUFALI: Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).
PICKTHAL: Glorified be He Who carried His servant by night from the Inviolable Place of Worship to the Far distant place of worship the neighbourhood whereof We have blessed, that We might show him of Our tokens! Lo! He, only He, is the Hearer, the Seer.
SHAKIR: Glory be to Him Who made His servant to go on a night from the Sacred Mosque to the remote mosque of which We have blessed the precincts, so that We may show to him some of Our signs; surely He is the Hearing, the Seeing.
It appears to me (note my acceptance that my worldview colors every perception I take, as it does EVERYBODY else’s perception of their world around them.) that the issues involved have more to do with a person’s personal worldview and the changes that occur with a shift of world view than it has to do with anything else. Even the levels of proof that are demanded by some folk are effected by the type of worldview that they have been schooled in.
Any muslim who has been converted to Christianity would consider that their previous “training” “instruction”, “indoctrination”,etc in the Koran would include instruction in the supremacy of Islam over other world religions and the necessity of conquest over those world religions (particularly Christianity Q 5:17) according to the method invoked in the Koran, murder (Q 47:4) and lies (Allah is a liar Q74:39 3:54,8:30, 13:42, 15:39) [2.191] “And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.”
Any muslim who has been to Mosque would consider themselves devout.
Where you are assuming lies by Dr. Caner, is better understood as the effect of a change of worldviews.
I sat with a former oil executive from Tehran on a train a little while ago. As we viewed the beauty of God’s creation he said to me “That is why I am not a muslim!” I asked whay he meant by that statement. “I am not a muslim becasue the god who tells me to kill unbelievers cannot be the loving God who created beauty in nature.”
Was this man a former terrorist? To my understanding he had never commited a terrorist act, but he considered that he had been raised and trained (instructed, indoctrinated) in the worldview of terrorism because he had been trained, taught, adopted the worldview of, a muslim who adhered to the Koran.
It is very much conceivable that Dr. Caner viewed himself in the same way.
As far as Dr. Caner is concerned, he had not lied.
It is your standard of evidence that is influenced by your Western Empiricism that demands levels of proof that muslims and ex muslims and folks from other parts of the world would not demand.
It is also your lack of understanding of pluralism in your own culture that presents as a myopic understanding of how others coming from other cultures perceive themselves.
I am calling for a bit of understanding here.
If Dr. Caner is crucified it will not be on a Christian cross, but rather upon a cross made from your own cultural empiricism that bows to scientism.
For pastors who are demanding that their congregations live counterculturally, I find it amusing that you attack someone from another culture in this way. For pastors who call people to love unconditionally and so ruthlessly and unlovingly attack others from a different culture over what are worldview issues amazes me.
Steve
Steve,
Does the same amazement find it’s way to you over how Christian is being attacked?
That is the real story. And to have a Muslim leading the attack while Christians blindly follow the line given.
That is amazing.
Steve,
Let me add that your perspective is actually a good one. It what a few people have been saying all along. The agenda out to destroy the ministry of a fellow believer is what has amazed me for over 3 months.
Turrentinfan,
Until you identify yourself you comments will no longer be accepted here at SBC Today. Go and blog all you like on your own blog, but we will not allow someone that is hiding behind a veil of anonymity to call for someone’s repentance. Until you identify yourself to one of the SBC Today managers all future comments will not be published.
Tim
Bennett,
Your last comment is removed. The reason is that you began with attacks on those in this comment stream. You do not realize that one of those in the comment stream is a man that is a former Muslim that was saved. You seem to negate everything that all have said so you can take cheap shots at everyone in the comment stream that disagree with you.
If you return to this comment stream you need to be ready to answer this question. Where is the call for repentance for those that have consistently called into question the devoutness of Dr. Caner’s Muslim beliefs before salvation. There is consistent proof that they were devout. If you refuse to accept that proof then say so. But do not attack those that are placing the information before you and you just refuse to believe this. Also be ready to give reason that you and others debase a Brother in Christ when the proof is there that he was a Devout Muslim before coming to Christ.
Blessings,
Tim
Reading through the comments, the image kept coming to me of Alice ‘in Wonderland’ and her famous encounter with Humpty Dumpty.
Now, of course nothing in ‘wonderland’ was as it seemed, and Alice almost always was quite bewildered.
I looked the passage up and found the pertinent dialogue that exactly fits the sort of thing I’m hearing on this site:
“”When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in a rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.”
Hmmmmmm . . . a strange ‘world-view’ we see when we fall down the rabbit-hole and encounter those who tell us a ‘word’ means what THEY say it means:
The ‘liar’ becomes a ‘victim’;
the ‘messengers who bring the bad news’ become ‘the liars’,
and it is all done ‘in a rather scornful tone’.
The disconnect with reality leaves me ‘quite bewildered’. :)
Christiane,
Could it possibly be that the disconnect with the truth is what began this whole disgusting mess.
1. Caner was not a Muslim. YES HE WAS.
2. Caner was a not a DEVOUT MUSLIM. YES HE WAS.
3. Caner lied about his family. NO HE DID NOT.
See the picture. It is the real deal.
MoKhan – a liar and a man on mission.
Jonathan – a liar and a man on a mission.
Why would anyone follow this junk they try to dish out.
Now that is disconnect.
Christianne et all,
Here is the deal. We have posted the rebuttal to all of the main charges–the Caners were not Muslims before coming to Christ. LU has done their investigation concerning the charges that Dr. Caner was not truthful in his presentations. Their response, he would not receive any reprimand and they are staying with him as President of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary. The blogger/Calvinist/Muslim coalition did everything they could to get this on a national media outlet. CT picked up the story and investigated and as a result of an independent investigation by a journalist and an internal investigation by LU there is not charges that have stuck to Dr. Caner.
Here is the deal. You have now called Dr. Ergun Caner a liar long enough here on SBC Today. You will not use our dime to call him that any longer. Dr. Ergun and Emir Caner are not liars and we have proven to you and the world that the information presented by MoKhan was false and done for the sole purpose to discredit God’s men. I have contacted the other managers here at SBC Today and we have decided that our task is complete. We have made available all of the clear evidence that is needed to point out that Dr. Ergun and Emir Caner are the real deal. We are at the point that this conversation is finished and it will not be discussed here any longer. The truth is out there and the false innuendos are out there. God help the Calvinist bloggers that have joined hands with the Muslims to discredit Brothers in Christ. You may chose to believe the false innuendos presented by the Muslims all you like, God will separate the goats from the sheep. I choose to be on the sheep side.
Tim Rogers and the SBC Today Team.