I was reading the On Mission magazine from NAMB when I saw a study done by the Barna Research Group. The research was done to show how lost people between the ages of 16 to 29 see evangelical Christians. I’m not sure why this is so important, nor what you and I can do with this research. I mean, lost people are not gonna like Christians. The Lord told us this. Did He not? Matthew 10:22 (English Standard Version) says that ”you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.” In the book of Luke 6:22 (English Standard Version), the Bible says that “Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man!” And, in 2 Timothy 3:12 (English Standard Version) we’re promised that “Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.”
So, when the research tells us that 91% of non-Christians see evangelicals as anti-homosexual, what are we supposed to do? Quit saying that homosexuality is a sin? Because, I’ll guarantee you that no matter how nice you try to say it, and no matter how many times you say that you love the homosexual person; whenever you say that the Bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin, people are gonna accuse us of being anti-homosexual. I’ve seen this first hand on more than one occasion. The lost crowd just does not want to hear that it’s sin against God; plain and simple.
And, when 87% of the lost crowd sees evangelical Christians as judgmental, are we supposed to stop calling sin what it is…”sin?” Because, listen, the lost, rebellious crowd will say this just because we call sin by it’s ugly name. That’s just how a lost person is, when they’re living in those sins. They don’t like for their sin to be brought to light. And, once again, no matter how nice and loving you try to be, once you name a sin as a sin, especially one that a person is living in; then you’re labeled as judgmental. Go on a talk show, and as nice and as lovingly kind as you can possibly say it; say that any sex outside of the marriage boundary is a sin against God. See how the crowd responds. It wont be pretty.
Okay, the next thing on the research list is that famous old, worn out line that a lot of lost people like to use about evangelical Chrisitans. 85% of the lost crowd sees us as hypocritical. So, what’s new here? I’ll bet this has been said ever since Noah first lifted a hammer and told people to get right with God, because it was gonna rain. Christians have faults and shortcomings. Every Christian sins; every last one of us. We all fail to be all that God wants us to be. So, everytime a Christian fails God, the lost crowd is waiting to pounce on it like a coyote after a fat, plump bunny rabbit. I think it makes them feel better about their own sins, when they can call Christians “hypocrites.” I think it eases their consciences just a little bit to point out the failures of a Believer. It gives them a good excuse to stay lost. And, you know what, lost people just dont understand grace. Again, what do we do with this info? I mean, we cant stop sinning. We’re gonna sin. We’re gonna fail God. So, what good is it to know this info? How does this help us? What in the world can we do with it?
Now, I’m not gonna go over every single research item that was listed in the Spring 2010 On Mission magazine by NAMB. But, here are the other topics: Non-Christians see evangelicals as Old Fashioned 78%; Too involved in Politics 75%; Out of Touch with Reality 72%; Insensitive to Others 70%; Boring 68%; Not Accepting of Others Faiths 64%; Confusing 61%. Well, some of these things we can work on. The old fashioned thing can be remedied, and it is being remedied by many, many Churches with contemporary music, technology, and dressing more cool and hip at Church. The “Too involved in Politics” thing is something that we’ll always be accused of, if we ever take a political stand for moral reasons. I do agree that some Pastors are too involved in politics. But, I’m glad that some Christians feel led to get into politics, in order to do good. And, any political stand that we take will be seen as too much for a lot of the lost crowd out there
Now, I’d imagine that evangelical Christians will always be looked upon as being out of touch with reality by the lost crowd. After all, we look thru the lens of faith at the world, and the lost crowd doesn’t. We can work on being more sensitive to others, but I doubt that us being more sensitive to others will ever be good enough for the lost crowd. The boring thing….well, I was bored with worship and Bible study and prayer, too, back when I was lost and living in sin. It didn’t do anything for me, as a lost person. I doubt that there was anything that could’ve been done to make it less boring for me, as long as I was lost and living in sin. Then, the “Not Accepting of Other’s Faiths” thing…well, this is just how it’s always gonna be. How could it ever be seen as any different? I mean, as Christians, who believe the Bible, Muslims are lost and wrong, and they worship a false god. Buddhists are lost, and they will not go to Heaven. Jews are not going to Heaven when they die, unless they put their faith in Jesus as their Messiah. Mormons are involved in a cult, and they definitely worship a false god. So, how in the world could we ever change this perspective, and still be true to God and to His Word? The Bible is exclusive. God is exclusive. All dogs don’t go to Heaven.
You know what I think? I think that the lost, rebellious crowd is always gonna view us, Christ Followers, as a strange and peculiar people, no matter what we do. I think that the lost crowd is gonna look upon us in a bad light, no matter what. I think that the lost crowd is not gonna be accepting of our beliefs, nor change their view of us, unless we’re willing to compromise our faith. They will look upon us in a bad way, unless we’re willing stop living for the Lord. I knew this before this study was ever done, and we all knew this before NAMB chose to put it in their magazine. I mean, I didn’t expect to win any popularity contest in the arena of the world, as a Believer. Who does? Anyone? The simple fact is that the lost crowd does not like us due to our walk with God; due to our being a follower of Jesus; due to us calling sin what it is; due to us preaching the Gospel….exhorting them to repent and put their faith in Jesus.
I’m not really sure why NAMB put this in their magazine, nor what we’re supposed to do with this study; but I’m sure that there’ll be some wimpy Christians out there that this will really disturb. There will be some namby, pamby Christians out there, who’ll be really upset that the lost crowd doesn’t like us. And, they’ll want to make every change possible to “get the lost crowd to like us.” Why? Why are there some Believers out there, who think like this? Who think that we have to please the worldly crowd? Who think that we have to be acceptable to the lost bunch? Who honestly think that somehow we can “make the lost people out there like us and accept us?” Who think this study is even important to know?
Are we gonna stop preaching against the sins of adultery and fornication and lying? Are we gonna start preaching that “all dogs go to Heaven?” Do we need to start telling homosexuals that “you’re ok, and I’m ok?” Are we gonna start having scantily clothed dancing girls in our church, so that the men will not be bored? And, sign up men from the church to be in our newly formed, worship leaders group the “Holy Chippendales,” so that the ladies will be more excited about coming to church? Do we need to start advertising that pre-worship cocktails will be available in the lobby? Maybe that’ll make the lost crowd feel better about us? or, at least, less bored with our worship?
I dont think so. I think that what we really need is for Christians to be more like the Believers in the book of Acts, and turn our world upside down. I really think that we need to trust the power of the Holy Spirit to call people to salvation. I really think that we need to preach the Gospel, stand on the truth of God’s Word, and leave the results to God. I really think that we should tweak how we do worship without violating Scripture; be creative in our outreach without getting stupid or crazy; and be open to making sensible changes that might open doors for us to able to reach lost people, without compromising our faith. Now, please know that I was not saying that NAMB, nor Barna, was saying anything about compromising, nor even hinting at compromising. I’m really not sure why they felt that this study was important. Maybe they just did it, and printed it merely for information’s sake, or out of curiousity, or to tell us what we all should already be aware of? I don’t know. But, I can just see the wheels turning in some “Evangelical Christians” minds about this info. They might start thinking of all the things that we need to do to be more acceptable to the lost crowd. I can just hear their thoughts about the shame it is that the lost crowd would think this of us, and how we need to change this perception.
Again, I ask how? And, will anything really change their perception of us? Do we honestly think that the lost crowd will ever view us in a truly positive light? I mean, if we really live for God, and preach the Gospel?
UPDATE: Franklin Graham was cancelled from speaking at the Pentagon for some remarks he made about Islam. Franklin Graham spoke the truth about Islam, and he was censored. Anyone surprised? Some of the people, who think that lost people will love us are probably a little shocked.
Wow!
DW:
As always your unwillingness to learn is front and center. You are right and they are wrong. It could not possibly be us Christians are wrong in the way the lost perceive us. I think the lost have some legitmate concerns when it comes to Christians and one of them is an unwillingness to learn how they view us.
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Hmm… Had Barna asked the same questions of Christians about Christians, would the numbers really be that far off from each other? I think we need to be humble enough before God to take and weigh criticism regardless of who it comes from.
You seem to be miffed about the assumptions and stereotypes lost people have about Christians, and then you make your own assumptions and stereotypes about the reasons why they said those things. It’s circular and only produces a lot of words instead of honest evaluation and repentence.
David, excellent excellent post. I was speaking with a liberal friend of mine and I reminded him over and over that it’s “ok” for the lost world to hate us. In fact, if they don’t we are obviously doing something wrong!
Hi DAVID,
Well, let’s see.
The Barna pool group was between ages 16 and 29 and are described by you as ‘lost’. (Can you give up a site to find this research please, David.)
And the Barna target group for this portion of the research were labeled ‘evangelicals’, but here a casual reader will even begin to ask for clarification.
You see, David, there are ‘evangelicals’, then there are ‘evANGELicals’ and then there are ‘fundamentalists calling themselves evangelicals’, and then there are ‘extremist fundamentalists calling themselves evangelicals’. So the public wonders how wide to apply the term ‘evangelical’.
And then there is the STEREOTYPING. It ranges from some thinking evangelicals are like the Westboro Baptist Church all the way to some thinking of evangelicals as people like Billy Graham or the wonderful family portrayed in the movie ‘Blind Side.
You see, David, it is so much easier to stereotype people ‘as a group’ and despise them and have contempt for them when we do not look into their eyes.
Of course, real evangelicals never stereotype do they? They don’t have contempt for certain groups of people. They can’t possibly hold contempt in their hearts for any person and seek to bring Christ into the life of that person. For that mission, an evangelical needs profound compassion of heart for the one who is ‘lost’ and ‘harassed’ and ‘without a Shepherd’, in the way Our Lord had compassion on them when He saw them from the boat.
I think what those young people crave is to see ‘the heart of compassion’ in evangelicals that speaks to them of Christ the Lord.
Perhaps, in the words of many self-styped ‘evangelicals’, the ‘lost’ only hear the contempt and the condemnation.
What is that verse in St. Mark’s Gospel where Our Lord quotes from Isaiah?
‘This people honors Me with their lips but their hearts are far from me.’ from St. Mark 7
Think about it. The darkness in the Westboro Baptist group, with no compassion for the pain they create with their contempt.
And the brilliant light of Christ’s love shone by the evangelical family for the young man who had no one and nothing.
David, maybe the ‘lost’ and the ‘harassed’ and ‘those without a Shepherd’ need to see THE HEART OF CHRIST’S LOVE in anyone who comes to them ‘with tidings of Great Joy’ about salvation.
If the hearts are missing in some evangelicals, they need to go the Lord, and ask Him to them ‘a new heart’, filled with compassion for others, the same compassion shown by Christ when He was among us.
David,
You are so good at quoting small portions of scripture that “prove” your viewpoints, I want to join in the fun.
“Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.” 1 Peter 2:11-12
The reputation we have among those who do not know God is important. Jesus’ reputation with those held captive by sin was good. The people who spoke against Him were the “religious” who felt like they had God all figured out and did not want Jesus upsetting their well organized apple cart.
I find it slightly humorous that 2 of your proof texts (Matthew 10 and 2 Timothy 2) refer to the persecution of Christians by those same religious elite (Jews who denied the coming of the Messiah) and that the third proof text (Luke 6) is from the Lukan Beatitudes which is immediately followed by passages about not judging and loving your enemies.
Based on your last few posts, I have to ask David, what are you so angry about? Why do your posts drip with disdain for people who do not know Jesus? These are people Jesus died for. None of us are the good guys. We all wear black hats and Jesus alone wears the white hat. He alone is good. We (you, I, those who believe) are righteous only through His sacrifice. It is not something that makes any of us better than someone else. We are sinners saved by grace. Our calling is to tell other people about Jesus. If we boast, we only boast in the cross not in our position as righteous, because that position was NOT earned but gifted to us through God’s grace.
To that end, David, isn’t the Gospel offensive enough? You ask if we need to have Chippendales dancers, and scantily clad women in church to please lost people. No, they aren’t coming to your church. They can get strippers at the club. They would like to hear about Jesus however. The problem is, David, you want to tell them everything that has to change in their lives before they can meet Jesus. When you and I know, Jesus does the changing, not them. They will remain helpless against sin, until they meet Him.
David, I am asking you to stop and read your post again. Read your last couple of posts on this subject. I think you are probably a pretty nice guy, but when you sit down to blog a seriously mean spirit comes out. Your harshness is targeted against people who are going to hell. The very people who Jesus died to save.
I imagine what I have written will not be very well received by you and some of the others who typically comment on this blog. I can’t help that. I just know you are shooting at the people many of us are dedicating our lives to reach. They are people who need Jesus and they have every reason to be dismissive of Christians who approach with harshness and condemnation. We have gone to them with love and truth so that though their lives are abominations they might hear the truth and experience the grace of God (1 Timothy 1:12-17) as He makes it known to them.
I hope you will consider my words. They are written with love from a brother in Christ. May God’s grace be upon you!
David,
You ask will anything really change their perception of us? Do we honestly think that the lost crowd will ever view us in a truly positive light? I mean if we really live for God and preach the gospel?
The answer is yes. Jesus said that by our love, all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. Written words find their difficulty in expressing emotions so excuse me if I have missed them, but this one post doesn’t seem to express love.
And no, I am not a namby, pamby Christian who wants people to like me. I am a Christian who wants lost people to repent and love Jesus. People are changed not by us preaching behavior modifications but preaching the gospel.
I hope that the attitude that I have perceived in this post is wrong. If it is not, I hope that you will find a balance that the gospel teaches between Truth and Love. Maybe a follow up post on how to love without compromising truth would help.
Brent Williams
Tom,
Please answer me….what am I supposed to learn from this study?
David
Allow me just enough time to encourage my Brother David W. and those that may not see things the same way.
Brother Tom Parker said; “As always your unwillingness to learn is front and center.”
Brother Andrew Wencl said; “It’s circular and only produces a lot of words instead of honest evaluation and repentence.”
Christianne said; “You see, David, it is so much easier to stereotype people ‘as a group’ and despise them and have contempt for them when we do not look into their eyes.”
Brother Ryan Abernathy said; Based on your last few posts, I have to ask David, what are you so angry about? Why do your posts drip with disdain for people who do not know Jesus?
Brother Brent Williams said; “I hope that the attitude that I have perceived in this post is wrong.”
Are all of these statements based on a few misplaced words in Brother David’s OP? He has use the term “lost crowd” and basically said that nothing is going to change their perception if we continue standing for truth and against sin. The question I would like to ask, is please point out the areas you disagree with Brother David? Each of you have made generic statements concerning his post. Not one has put into print the source of what you disagree with in this post. You have used words like “perceive” and then group Evangelicals as one large group that ranges from Westboro Baptist to Billy Graham. Let me say Westboro Baptist is not Evangelical.
So, why not place the source where you believe Brother David is giving harsh statements and then allow him to answer the issue. I would encourage that for a great dialogue between Brothers and Sisters in Christ.
Blessings,
Tim
Andrew,
I’m not miffed, at all. I’m not angry, either. I’m also not in any tit for tat with any lost people about their view of us. I’m simply stating that that’s how the lost crowd will view us. Sooooooooo????
Again, I ask….”will anything really change their perception of us? Do we honestly think that the lost crowd will ever view us in a truly positive light? I mean, if we really live for God, and preach the Gospel?”
David
Zack,
You are exactly correct. If the lost crowd liked us, it would make me wonder what was wrong with my walk with the Lord.
John Wesley was concerned about his walk with God, one time, because no one had persecuted him in a while. So, he got down off of his horse and started praying…repenting of his not living for the Lord like he should…since he was not suffering persecution at the hands of the lost crowd. Well, a lost farmer heard him praying, and it made him mad. So, he went over and hit Wesley. Wesley just said, “Thank you, Lord,” and got on his horse and rode away happy.
David
L’s,
I have absolutely no idea why you’re saying the things that your’re saying in response to my post.
The study can be found in On Mission magazine. Go to the NAMB website and maybe you’ll see it there. I dont know.
Also, I really dont understand why you would think that there’s any anger towards Non-Christians…which is what the study calls them. The study calls Believers “Evangelicals.” L’s, an evangelical is a Christian, who believes the Bible, who believes lost people need to be saved, who believes the major, fundamental doctrines of the faith. That’s what an Evangelical is. Roman Catholics and Episcopalians and would not be considered “Evangelicals.”
But, there’s no anger on my part towards lost people. I call them lost people, because they are….lost…and they are…people. But, I care very much for the people, who are lost. I would love to see everyone one of them get saved, and come to know the Lord Jesus.
Also, L’s, the Bible very clearly teaches that lost people are lost; they are in rebellion towards God; they often will persecute the Christ Follower that really lives for God; and they need to be saved. There’s nothing angry about this. There’s nothing arrogant about saying this. It’s just what the Bible teaches. I used to be lost and in rebellion against God, myself. I used to live for sin. I was one of the worst sinners. I used to be in animosity towards Believers, until the Lord Jesus saved me and changed my heart.
David
According to L’s, Debbie Cough-man, and Don Quixote we don’t have any right to be proclaiming the forgivness of sins in Jesus Christ. In their worldview, we’re just supposed to silently witness to them with our live and never, not once, EVER mention the fact that Jesus will forgive a sinner if that sinner repents and trusts Him to save them.
As for me, I’d rather take my lumps and tell them that Jesus will save them and that He loves to save sinners. All they have to do is repent is and trust Him. I’m going to warn them of the very real danger of hell and plead with them not to go there.
If that makes me a hateful fundy (and to L’s, Debbie Cough-man, and Don Quixote it does) then I’m ok with that and I will GLADLY take the lumps that come with it.
Ryan,
I preach Jesus and Him crucified. I preach grace. I do not preach that people have to clean up their lives to come to God. I preach that they need to come to God, and He will clean up their lives.
Also, I’m not angry at lost people. Why would you even think this? I’m really having a hard time seeing this? I’m just calling lost people what they are. They are lost. Saved people are saved. Lost people are lost. What’s angry about that? Also, lost people go to Hell, if they die in their sins. That’s just the truth. Telling the truth does not mean that you’re being mean, or that you’re somehow angry.
The jest of my post was why would this Barna study that NAMB put in the On Mission magazine really be of any value to us, Believers? Why would we need to know that lost people dont like Christians, and why they’d say the things they do about us? We’re told in the Bible that the lost crowd will hate us for Jesus sake. We’re told that those who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. We’re told that the Gospel will be offensive to the lost crowd. We’re told to not worry, to not be afraid, when the world will hate us, and do all manner of evil towards us. We’re told about the sufferings of Jesus, the Apostles, and many, many Believers down thru the ages.
So, again, Ryan, why do you think I’m angry? Why do you think this study is useful? And, do you really think that the lost crowd will think good of us? Do you think that if we will ever receive the approval of the world?
David
Also, Ryan, I agree completely with 1 Peter 2:11-12. Yes, we should live our lives in such a way that we’re a witness of God’s righteousness and goodness and love. But, what’s that got to do with what I wrote?
David
David,
I can’t answer your question, what do we do with this study. I don’t know. By the way, nice answer to Ryan in #14 “I preach Jesus and Him crucified.” I think that’s what I also said in a previous post of yours and was villified. No problem. If you want to get a look at what lost people think of us as Christians and why we’re not reaching more of them, read “Lord, Save us from your Followers,” by Merchant. He explains this bumper sticker mentality, i.e. “turn or burn” etc. that we have as Christians. We don’t give lost people a chance to speak and dialogue. We try to tell them to “get right or get left” and things like that. We need to listen to them. To live a Christ-like life before them and when the Spirit’s timing is right, give them the Gospel and how it changed our lives and how it can change theirs. Lost people are turned off by our my way or the highway attitude. Just one opinion.
Hi DAVID,
Actually, I was very moved by your post. I saw something in it that pleaded for some kind of understanding. I know, David, the way many feel is that they must bring Christ to others IN A WAY that causes the ‘lost’ to reject THEM. And in rejecting THEM, some Christian’s feel that the ‘lost’ reject Our Lord.
For me, this is very sad.
When I wrote that statement: ““You see, David, it is so much easier to stereotype people ‘as a group’ and despise them and have contempt for them when we do not look into their eyes.”;
I meant it goes ‘both ways’:
the ‘lost’ stereotype some evangelists without getting to know them, too.
Stereotyping hurts everyone. Maybe, and I suggest this with all love, maybe it is better for ‘two sinners’ to sit down together, as sinners, and speak of the Lord Christ together. One sinner, the evangelist;
the other, the person who needs Our Lord. You see, David, we all need Our Lord, all the time, every day, every moment.
It’s not like the evangelist can say, ‘I thank God I am not like that other sinner.’ None of us can say we do not need Him.
Based on ‘perception’, the ‘lost’ may dismiss evangelicals and their message. The PERCEPTION of the ‘lost’ is that point of view from which they see evangelicals. It may have nothing to do with the REALITY of who the evangelist really is. But, in truth, the evangelist must take some responsibility for the WAY he or she approaches someone who needs Our Lord.
Both need to sit down and get to know one another as people who BOTH have great need of Our Lord. From the very beginning, then, the focus will be on Lord Christ, where it needs to be. And then, by the power of the Holy Spirit, some good will come.
Be peaceful, David.
Brent,
We can love the lost. We can be as nice as we can be towards lost people. We can do all kinds of good towards the lost. And, some of the lost people will like us for this…a few of them may get saved. And, hallelujah when they do! But, it’s also a little naive to think that being loving and kind and doing good towards the lost is somehow gonna make them think good of Christians, or is going to make them accept us. The moment that you witness to them about the Lord and His salvation, may be the time when you will experience their hatred. Or, if you’re a Pastor, and you call homosexuality a sin against God, or you say that adultery is wrong…that this is not the way that God would want us to live…you know, like Paul does in the NT; then, there will be a great possibility of facing the anger of the lost crowd, who is in rebellion against God.
Brent, I’ll tell you what. You go on Jay Leno, or on a talk show on TV, like Oprah used to have. And, you be as nice and kind as you possibly can. And, you talk about Jesus and grace. And then, when Jay asks you if you believe that Muslims are not going to Heaven; and you answer truthfully….what do you suppose the reaction of the crowd will be? If you get on the talk show with Oprah, and she tells you that there are many paths to God, and each one is on their own path. And, she looks you in the face, and says, “Dont you think so, Brent?” What will you say? And, if you’re faithful to God, you’ll say that there’s only one way to God…. Tell me, Brent, do you think Oprah’s crowd will cheer you? Or, will they boo you off the stage? with Oprah leading the hissing of the crowd?
I’ve seen Christians be as nice and as kind as they can be, and answer questions in public places; and the crowd did not like what they said.
so, Brent, I try my best to love lost people. I try my best to be nice and kind and polite and respectful to the lost crowd. But, I also dont expect much back from them. Why? because I know what the Bible teaches about the heart of man. I know what the Bible teaches about the reaction of the lost crowd will be towards the Gospel and our trying to live righteously. I dont hate lost people. I’m just being realistic, and trying to get you and everyone else that reads this post to be realistic.
Brent, I’ve been cussed, threatened, kicked out of people’s houses, had a knife put to my throat, ostracized by people, had Gospel tracts thrown back in my face, or thrown at feet, and a few other not so good things…..all because I preached the Gospel of grace and love. I’ve seen the ugly side of people first hand. And, I can promise you that I was trying to just love these people…being as nice as possible…being extremely polite…being respectful towards them. But, I also know the heart of lost man, and I’ve experienced the attitude of the lost crowd.
David
Michael,
No one villified you for preaching Christ and Him crucified…no one from the SBC Today crowd did. So, I’m not sure why you’re thinking that.
But also, Michael, while I agree that the way we live, as Christians, will open or close doors of witness to the lost crowd. I agree that Believers should live like Believers. No one is saying different.
But, Michael, Noah was a righteous man. The lost crowd absolutely made fun of him. Ridiculed him. Didnt they?
Jeremiah, the Prophet, simply preached God’s message. The people did not like him. They scorned him, and they threw him down into a cistern.
Seems like I remember Paul being beaten, stoned, whipped, cast into prison, and finally put to death…for what? For what, Michael? Preaching the Gospel and living for God. Seems like I also remember Paul facing the ire of the false god worshippers for saying that their gods were FALSE.
Also, I never saw anything in my OP that said that we shouldnt talk to lost people, and listen to them. Did I? I did say that I’m not the least surprised that lost people feel like they do towards us. I am saying that I’m not surprised in the least that they’d answer the questions the way they did. And, Michael, if you and I tried to be the best person you could possibly be, and truly tried to reach people for the Lord, and you did all kinds of good deeds; and all the Christians every where did the same; you know what? the answer to the questions of the lost crowd would probably still be the same thing.
Why? because lost people dont like hearing the Gospel. It’s offensive to them. Lost people, on the whole, dont like hearing that their lifestyle is sinful. Lost people dont like that there’s only one way to Heaven.
David
Also, to some of the people, who think that we should never preach against sin; hogwash.
I do believe in preaching the Gospel. I preach grace. People need to get saved, first and foremost. But, also, James, John, Paul, Peter, and every other Apostle, and the Lord Himself called sin what it is…sin. And, that was not being legalistic. That was not preaching a works salvation.
In fact, John the Baptist preached against the sin of Herod. Jesus mentioned a few people’s sins as He taught and preached. James is very adamant about living right. Peter seems to have no problem calling sin what it is. Paul talks pretty plain about adulterers and liars, and homosexuals, and drunkards all going to Hell.
So, I guess I’ll stick with the Apostles and the Prophets on this one, boys and girls. Along with my preaching of the cross, and talking about grace; I’ll also call sin what it is. And, you know what? When people see that their sin is against God, and that God will hold them accountable for the sins they commit; then they just might see the need to get saved? Maybe they’ll see a need for a Savior?
A lot of lost people may not want a good friend, who will help them with their problems. A lot of lost people might not be too interested in an old grandfather type god, who just pats them on the back, and buys them little treats every now and then.
People have to see that there’s a need for salvation.
David
David, before Michael Spencer died, he wrote an essay that relates to your post a lot.
http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/imonk-101-why-do-they-hate-us
Now, Michael was honest and blunt but people loved him for it. All kinds of people loved Michael. He cut through a lot of the ‘noise’ we speak at each other and got to the heart of our concerns. I sorry he’s gone.
I think Michael would have been moved by your post, David. He was a Southern Baptist. He was a Christian.
DW,
Gracious, get a cup of coffeee or prozac or whatever you need, brother! I never said I disagreed with you, I’m telling you in my opinion only, when we continue to shove it down their throats with no grace, no love, just this is what the Bible says and that’s that, they won’t listen and won’t come to Christ. Do you think maybe the SBC is in such trouble because we haven’t engaged our culture with the Gospel? I’m not arguing with you or saying that this is what you are doing. I’m trying to learn from others how we can reach the lost. I agree with you the prophets, apostles, disciples all did preach the things you said. Where though in the NT did Jesus ever engage with the culture with a hate mentality or angry with them? He was angry with the so called “religious” people of the day. He treated sinners with love and said sin no more.
DW and Joe:
You two guys need to read 1 Cor. Chapter 13 and then put it into practice.
What and why is it shocking that darkness does not like light and in fact hates it. Will not sinners not look at self but at other reasons. Plus they do not want to be converted.
Did the survey have any questions that asked if sinners are glad they are doomed, or seen as unrighteous before God? Does it surprise anyone that sinners are hostile to the gospel unless the Holy Spirit convicts them? Imperfect Christians have preached Christ for 2000 years and it works.
Will the sinner say at judgement “Those Christians did not use an accomadating enough translation and their expresso was awful-that’s my excuse.”
Tim, Thanks for encouraging David. I’m sure he needed it. David asked a question at the end of his post and I answered it – yes and added some commentary.
David,
Sometimes, I wish blogs didn’t exist. It is impossible to know your heart on the issue, and I’m pretty sure you are full of love for those outside of Christ. If I was a guessing man, you are sick and tired of pastors/christians trying to win over lost people at the expense of standing for truth. They spend years trying not to hurt their feelings all the while pampering their worldview. They are afraid to call sin – SIN. I too am sick of that. My observation was only one of balance. I also didn’t read your blog post and the statistics you quoted as “public perception” but more on an individual perception (like what my friend Sam thinks of Christians or my barista.) But as I reread your post and your comments to others, the issue you raised is why do we need to know what lost people think of us and will lost people ever view us positively?
FIrst: I would say that the perception those outside of Christ have about Christians is something we should be concerned with. It shouldn’t consume us because of what you have quoted in Scripture. It does help though when we are trying to communicate the gospel. It doesn’t change our message, but we will be prepared for many of the objections that people have towards the message of Christ. We will understand a little better some of their objections (right or wrong) to their perception of Christianity in the context that we are in.
Second: On an individual basis, I would say that yes lost people can view us in a positive light. Will they all? No. It sounds like you have pastored for many years. In your community, I am sure that there are lost people who’s world might be falling apart who would feel safe coming to you. This happened because you held tightly truth in one hand and used the other hand to hug them and offer love. So yes they view you positive, because of your consistency to biblical Christianity and your love.
On another note, we are planting a new church in Anchorage, Alaska. The most unchurched state in the US. With a population over 300,000, only 1500 people are worshipping in a SBC church. We need churches in the lower 48 to partner with us.
Brent Williams
http://www.truenorthanchorage.com
David, before Michael Spencer died, he wrote an essay that relates to your post a lot.
Well, if by “relates” you mean “is the exact opposite of”. David’s point is that OF COURSE the world is going to hate Christians. I mean, someone paid money for a study to discover THAT?? Seriously??
Imonk’s point was that Christians needs to walk on eggshells around the rest of the world, worry about how they’re going to feel if they hear the message of the cross, avoid suggesting something like “absolute truth” particularly as it relates to the claims of Christ, and make sure to never, EVER, call them to repent and trust Christ as Savior and Lord.
Joe, have you read the essay?
Michael,
Again, show me where I’m angry. I’ve told you that I wasnt angry. Why do you keep saying that I am?
David
Fletcher,
Amen.
David
Brent,
Amen, Brother. And, thanks for understanding what I wrote, and why I wrote what I did. May God bless your work in Alaska in a great way. A friend of my wife and I spent many years in Alaska. His name is Wally Smith. I dont think he’s in Alaska anymore, but he was up there for a long time.
Also, Brent, yes, there are some lost people that will appreciate what we’ve done for them, or that we try to be nice to them; but overall, the lost crowd is not gonna be happy that we preach the Gospel and call sin what it is.
David
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DW:
Since you became a regular writer on SBC Today it has taken a negative turn that is not helping the cause of the Gospel. Now I know TR and JB likes your tone, but come on man you turn Christians off, I can only imagine the perception of a lost person of you and your message.
Brother Tom,
Your becoming a regular commenter has made it a negative turn”. We would disagree on things before Brother David got here but we never had one person that disagreed with everything we said…that is until you became a regular. According to you we are wrong about everything. Enjoy the blog, enjoy the commenting privileges, but David Worley is a listed contributor. Your negativity toward him is not going to change that.
Blessings,
Tim
I liked what MICHAEL McGIRT wrote in answer to David.
In all the exchanges that have taken place here, I think that Michael has expressed the experience of how his words were recieved the best when he wrote this:
Quoting Michael’s comment:
“DW,
Gracious, get a cup of coffeee or prozac or whatever you need, brother! I never said I disagreed with you, I’m telling you in my opinion only, when we continue to shove it down their throats with no grace, no love, just this is what the Bible says and that’s that, they won’t listen and won’t come to Christ. Do you think maybe the SBC is in such trouble because we haven’t engaged our culture with the Gospel? I’m not arguing with you or saying that this is what you are doing. I’m trying to learn from others how we can reach the lost. I agree with you the prophets, apostles, disciples all did preach the things you said. Where though in the NT did Jesus ever engage with the culture with a hate mentality or angry with them? He was angry with the so called “religious” people of the day. He treated sinners with love and said sin no more.”
My own comment is this:
1. David ‘perceived’ that Michael was angry at him, but Michael wasn’t.
2. Michael was trying to explain the VERY REAL EVIDENCE in Scripture that Christ got extremely firm with the ‘hypocrisy’ of the Pharisees of His Day (and in the end, they wanted Him crucified).
3. Michael is CORRECT in that the Lord Christ had tremendous impact on the sinners he encountered, but He was not ‘harsh’ with them, in the way of modern day fundamentalism.
I think Michael offered a perspective that is needed: keeping Christ’s own way with sinners at the center, as a model of how to reach the ‘lost’. Fundamentalism doesn’t do that. The harshness found in fundamentalist rhetoric is not ‘of Christ’ in imitation of the way He was with sinners. He was ‘harsh’ with the self-righteous hypocrites who prayed ‘thank God I am not like that sinner’.
Michael McGirt ‘got it right’. And the EVIDENCE is found in ‘Christ’s Words and Actions’ in the Holy Scriptures.
Perhaps fundamentalists needed to ‘remove’ the Words and Actions of Our Lord from the BF&M2K, in order to justify abandoning them as the ‘criteria’ for interpreting and teaching the Gospel ???
Interesting post. Several responses I think are worth considering. First, with so many Americans claiming a relationship with Christ or church (75%) without a biblically defined salvation experience, the lost are sure to see hypocrites, etc. (Barna’s research runs into this problem constantly). Second, those familiar with the biblical description of the lost should not be surprised by these findings (1 Cor 1:18–2:16; Rom 1:18–32, Eph. 2, 4, 5). Without the Holy Spirit, unbelievers find it enormously difficult to know the followers of Christ (John 15:18–16:11) Third, this research may be good news in a way–it may reveal that many unbelievers are under conviction, and not understanding it, they fight it and blame the nearest thing in the way–Christians. Nero deflected accusation for his sins and crimes by blaming Christians, too. Finally, we must guard ourselves with great alertness not to allow for hypocrisy to undermine us or malicious characterizations to embitter us. We must live as the most godly, kind, and evangelistic persons on earth.
Tom,
Point out the “negative” for me? Point out where I was “angry.”
Or, do you just come in here to harass and accuse? You sound angry and bitter to me.
David
L’s and Michael(apparently),
Who said anything about shoving the truth of God’s Word down anyone’s throat?
Who’s argueing about Jesus nailing the Pharisees to the wall? What’s that got to do with what I wrote?
Who said anything about getting “harsh” with sinners? Is telling the truth “harsh?” L’s and Michael, how would you tell a Muslim, or a Jew, or a Mormon that Hell was gonna be their eternal destiny, unless they repented of their false beliefs and put their faith in Jesus?
David
David Mills,
Excellent comment, Brother. Thanks for contributing.
David
Tom,
Also, about reading 1 Corinthians 13, I have. I seek to live it out everyday of my life. I fail too often, but I do know it. I try my best…with Gods help…to live it out in my life.
But, thanks for telling me this.
David
L’s and Michael, how would you tell a Muslim, or a Jew, or a Mormon that Hell was gonna be their eternal destiny, unless they repented of their false beliefs and put their faith in Jesus?
I don’t know about Michael, but I know for a fact how L’s would handle that. She wouldn’t tell them they were going to hell. Telling someone their sin will seperate them from God eternally and they will be punished is hateful.
That is kind of like a doctor telling me everything is alright when I have an agressive form of cancer. Patting me on the back, saying “Hey, let’s go play some golf” or something knowing that I’ve got months to live. It astounds me that anyone thinks that is the “loving” way to treat someone.
David,
Thanks for your OP. It makes a great point. What is our goal? Is our goal to to get lost 16-29 year olds to be pleased with what we do or for God to be pleased with what we do?
As you said, “I’m not sure why this is so important, nor what you and I can do with this research.”
I’m not either. The Barna research is interesting, but I’ll choose the Bible over Barna as the guide for my faith and practice. It matters not what any demographic group thinks of me, for I won’t be standing before them on judgment day.
“But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.” 1 Corithian 4:3,4
Joe,
Probably.
Matt,
Amen, Brother.
David
Hi DAVID,
You asked this: ‘L’s, how would you tell a Muslim, or a Jew, or a Mormon that Hell was gonna be their eternal destiny, unless they repented of their false beliefs and put their faith in Jesus?’
I would ‘point to’ Christ the Lord and I would trust in the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives.
As far as ‘telling them what their eternal destiny will be’, I do not despair of the Mercy of God in all things.
BTW, speaking of those of ‘another faith’:
I sometimes visit with an old rabbi at the Temple where a friend of mine is the principal of the Hebrew School. I always ask his blessing when I leave there. Most of his family were gassed in the Nazi camps by those who did not share his faith. He already knows what hell is, David.
Our faith teaches that hell is ‘where God is not’.
The good rabbi harbors no contempt for the murderers of so many of his family. He says ‘God is merciful AND just. They are in His Hands now.’
David, in some better world than this, there would be great recognition and celebration of the fruits of the Spirit: kindness, love, patience, forgiveness, faithfulness, and so on.
And if I find the fruits of the Spirit in an old rabbi, so hurt by this world, then who am I to judge his eternal destiny? Just some thoughts.
Love, L’s
L’s,
If you are believe hell is “where God is not” are you saying God was not at Majdanek, Sobibor, Auschwitz-Birkenau and Belzec? Are you saying God was not in those places?
Do you not believe in an omnipresent God?
BTW, Catholic theology teaches a literal place called hell as a place of punishment with everlasting fire-the abode of the damed.
L’s,
That should have been;
“If you are “of the” belief….” And damned rather than damed.
I was trying to carry on a conversation with one of my little girls and type at the same time. I am getting too old to do two things at once. Probably I am getting too old to rear little girls.
But I am not too old to know the difference between biblical truth and fairy-tales. Hell is real L’s. Lost people go there. Only those who have repented of sin and believed the biblical gospel escape hell. Being sweet and nice “don’t cut it” L’s.
Hi C.B.
My Church’s teaching about ‘hell’ is NOT exactly the same as your beliefs, no. Nor do we take the images found in Scripture as literally as do fundamentalists. For us, ‘hell’ means eternal separation from God.
This site can help a little bit to explain it:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM
Essentially, we believe that there exists free will in humans.
And that some will choose to be eternally separated from His Presence.
That ‘eternal separation’ is the ‘place’ where God is not.
Those sweet children sound wonderful, C.B. They are lucky to have you to help raise them. Love, L’s
Wrong L’s,
RC theology of hell is:
“The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after
death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the
punishments of hell, “eternal fire.”[615] The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from
God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for
which he longs.”
Now L’s,
Will you address the questions I asked of you earlier?
If you are of the belief hell is “where God is not” are you saying God was not at Majdanek, Sobibor, Auschwitz-Birkenau and Belzec?
Are you saying God was not in those places?
Do you not believe in an omnipresent God?
CB is right, L’s. Hell is a real place, and it’s a forever place. And, all of those people, who die outside of Christ, will go there forever.
L’s, you’re a universalist. You sound like you believe that everyone is really going to Heaven. Do You think Dahmer and Hitler and John Wayne Gacy will go to Heaven.
Also, L’s, you really sound like a works salvation….you know, if people are nice and do good, then they go to Heaven. But, there’s only one thing wrong with that…it’s not what the Bible teaches.
So, Michael, do you agree with L’s(Christiane)? Tom, do you? Anyone else? Maybe that’s why yall thought saying that Muslims and Jews will go to Hell if they die in their false religion sounds harsh and arrogant to yall?
David
Christiane, You wrote the following:
“My Church’s teaching about ‘hell’ is NOT exactly the same as your beliefs, no. Nor do we take the images found in Scripture as literally as do fundamentalists. For us, ‘hell’ means eternal separation from God.”
Thanks for being transparent, but one question. Why not use the words about hell that Jesus used?
Hi C.B.
The teaching you quote from the catechism for number 615 is not correct.
I’m not sure of your source for your number ’615′
Our catechism has this for 615:
615 “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.” By His obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant, who “makes Himself an offering for sin”, when “He bore the sin of many”, and Who “shall make many to be accounted righteous”, for “He shall bear their iniquities”. Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father.
Jesus consummates his sacrifice on the cross”
C.B. if THAT is the entry number you quoted from, I’m not seeing it there.
Where DID you get your info for a number ’615′ ?
Perhaps you gave me the wrong entry number from our formal Catechism ? That could happen, it’s a big document. Let me know. We’ll figure it out.
BTW, yes, we believe in God’s ‘Omnipresence’, of course, same as you.
The expression ‘hell’ for the death camps was descriptive of what went on there. If you ever have the chance to visit the Holocaust Memorial Museum in D.C., you will understand.
‘Hell’, as Catholics understand it, is a state of separation from God for all eternity.
Hi C.B.
Mystery solved.
You gave me a footnote number to a verse in St. Matthew.
The actual Catechism entry numbers for the teaching of the Church about ‘hell’ range from 1033 to 1037.
L’s,
That sidestep just will not work.
I quoted the CR position as it is:
“The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.”
The “615″ is meaningless and was not actually part of the quote. So don’t try to build a strawman from it.
But David Mills asks of you a very good question:
” Why not use the words about hell that Jesus used?”
And while you answer that question answer the ones I asked you earlier:
“If you are of the belief hell is “where God is not” are you saying God was not at Majdanek, Sobibor, Auschwitz-Birkenau and Belzec?
Are you saying God was not in those places?
Do you not believe in an omnipresent God?
BTW, L’s I do not need to go to DC to view scenes of the Holocaust. I have seen the real thing. So answer the question. Was God not at Auschwitz when the Nazis were burning women and children? Was that actually hell? Was God not there?
Vol,
I am going to take liberty here and put up L’s and her friend’s conversation on hell. You can delete it if you desire.
Here it is:
“People threaten others with hell and judge others because it’s so much ‘easier’ to be negative, so much easier to try to create fear,
than to share the light of Christ humbly and peacefully with others.
Fundamentalists/pharisees come upon people fiercely to take them to judgment ‘at the hour when the darkness reigns’.
But Christians know that it is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness.
Christ is the Light of the world. We need to point people towards that Light so that they will be able to find their way to Him.
Comment by christiane | April 9, 2010 | Reply
Christiane: I agree. We have to point people to the light. Better than this, the Life. I don’t think we should avoid the subject of hell. The Bible speaks about it. For me personally, I do not speak of hell at all when I present the Gospel. Why? I can’t bear to think of anyone going to hell. Honest. Not for any other reason. I never have spoken of it and I never will. I did speak of it in the days I was angry at something or someone. Particularly my children or my husband. And not for purposes of evangelism. I speak of Christ as who he is. God God/man Three persons, One God etc. and his ministry on earth, death, burial, and the best part that he is alive today. What did Christ say to Mary Magdalene? The Woman at the Well? The Rich man? Zaccheus? Others he spoke to? His own disciples? That is the pattern we should follow.
Comment by Debbie Kaufman | April 9, 2010 | Reply
The place without God. That is what hell is. Eternally in a place where God is not. I do not think it is a place with a literal fire, the horribleness of it is that God is not there. People call this world hell, they have no idea. God is here, even if they are not aware. But in hell God is not there. No God. That is the torture. It’s very difficult for me to speak about. But I do when necessary. As I said the Bible does teach it. I teach it. But I admit I don’t do it unless I am teaching through a book and the subject is in the passage of that particular book. People need to know that Christ is the light. The Life. He gives us a whole new life. Paul calls born again Christians. New creations in 2 Corinthians 5:17. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! I also notice that Christ spoke of heaven more than hell in the Bible. That is something to note as well. Thank you Christiane.
Comment by Debbie Kaufman | April 9, 2010 | Reply
I agree, Debbie.
Christ’s ‘way’ with people would be the most effective ‘way’ to present the Gospel to anyone. Christ always did say that we were to learn from Him.
Anyone who has seen Fred Phelps’ group in action KNOWS that it is not ‘of Christ’.
Anyone who hears about the way Lottie Moon cared for her Chinese people KNOWS the love of Christ in action.
That thing about hell is sort of like that passage in the Bible about the ‘light shone in the darkness, and the darkness consumed it not.’
The message of hell only becomes really understood as ‘the place where God is not’ when the Message of the Christ,
‘The Uncreated Light’, is given center stage in all of its fullness and goodness.”
L’s,
Do you really see those of us who believe in a literal burning hell as having the mentality of Fred Phelps?
Hi C.B.
Thank you for posting my blog conversation with Debbie.
I loved that dialogue with Debbie. That term ‘the place where God is not’ is a phrase I borrowed from John Paul II. The term is ‘symbolic’ of the state of one who chooses to be in eternity without God.
There has always been controversy about the nature of ‘hell’: whether it was a literal place or ‘imagery’ in that it described the state of a person’s intense suffering when they have deprived themselves for all eternity of the Presence of God, the Source of all love and joy.
As for Fred Phelps cult, I believe that they are not just ‘fundamentalists’, but that they are also rabid ‘extremists’ and have become a ‘cult’. I can’t see you as one of their followers, C.B. No way.
I do consider Westboro at one extreme end of a spectrum and they are a really good example of what happens to people when they take their focus off of Lord Christ, and become judges and tormentors. They represent an example of a people filled with contempt and deep malice. No one can see the light of Christ in them.
I contrast them with Lottie Moon’s Christ-like love during a time of famine, feeding the Chinese with her own food, and dying of starvation herself. She most certainly represents a true witness of Christ, as she was one whose heart was filled with compassion for those who were ‘without a Shepherd’. She radiated the ‘light’ of Christ.
Lottie Moon learned how to care for ‘those without a Shepherd’ in a way that was modeled on Christ’s compassion. She is a good role model for evangelicals of how to minister to those who need Christ’s saving love.
L’s,
You are a true and good dodger. Let’s go back.
You stated the following to Vol:
“I sometimes visit with an old rabbi at the Temple where a friend of mine is the principal of the Hebrew School. I always ask his blessing when I leave there. Most of his family were gassed in the Nazi camps by those who did not share his faith. He already knows what hell is, David.
Our faith teaches that hell is ‘where God is not’.
The good rabbi harbors no contempt for the murderers of so many of his family. He says ‘God is merciful AND just. They are in His Hands now.’
David, in some better world than this, there would be great recognition and celebration of the fruits of the Spirit: kindness, love, patience, forgiveness, faithfulness, and so on.
And if I find the fruits of the Spirit in an old rabbi, so hurt by this world, then who am I to judge his eternal destiny? Just some thoughts.”
Following that comment of yours to Vol, I asked you the following of which you do not answer:
“If you are of the belief hell is “where God is not” are you saying God was not at Majdanek, Sobibor, Auschwitz-Birkenau and Belzec?
Are you saying God was not in those places?
Do you not believe in an omnipresent God?”
Why do you not answer?
BTW, You took the Pope’s words out of context. But, nonetheless, I really would like for you to tell me if God was not in the concentration camps when the Nazis were burning people? Was that a “place where God is not” which defines hell for you L’s?
Hi JOE,
I did. Here is the answer from my comment number 53:
“BTW, yes, we believe in God’s ‘Omnipresence’, of course, same as you.
The expression ‘hell’ for the death camps was descriptive of what went on there. If you ever have the chance to visit the Holocaust Memorial Museum in D.C., you will understand.
‘Hell’, as Catholics understand it, is a state of separation from God for all eternity.”
Eli Wiesel, a death camp survivor, wrote a moving account called ‘Where is God?’.
I will try to find that for you.
L’s,
Hell is not just “a state of separation from God for all eternity” according to RC theology.
Catholic theology relating to hell is basically word for word what those “fundamentalists” you hate so much embrace as their theology of hell. RC theology of hell is:
“The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.”
Hi C.B.
Here is the essay by Eli Wiesel that I promised to find for you.
Somehow, it should not be used in any sort of theological argument.
It was written so that people might know ‘how it was there’:
Wiesel described his life during the Holocaust in his earliest and most profound work, titled Night. He described a hanging that he witnessed when he was 16 in these well-known paragraphs from that work:
“[The head of the camp] had a young boy under him…a child with a refined and beautiful face….
One day when we came back from work, we saw three gallows rearing up in the assembly place….SS all around us, machine guns trained: the traditional ceremony. Three victims in chains—and one of them, the little servant, the sad-eyed angel….
All eyes were on the child. He was lividly pale, almost calm, biting his lips….
The three victims mounted together onto the chairs.
The three necks were placed at the same moment within the nooses….
“Where is God? Where is He?” someone behind me asked.
At a sign from the head of the camp, the three chairs tipped over.
Total silence throughout the camp. On the horizon, the sun was setting….
We were weeping….
Then the march past began. The two adults were no longer alive. Their tongues hung swollen, blue-tinged. But the third rope was still moving; being so light, the child was still alive….
For more than half an hour he stayed there, struggling between life and death, dying in slow agony before our eyes. And we had to look him full in the face. He was still alive when I passed in front of him. His tongue was still red, his eyes not yet glazed.
Behind me, I heard the same man asking: “Where is God now?”
And I heard a voice within me answer him: “Where is He? Here He is—He is hanging here on this gallows.”
So, C.B. yes, God was there, and His Presence was acknowledged by those in the camps in ways we cannot begin to understand.
Be peaceful,
Love, L’s
L’s,
The BF&M 2000 states of hell:
“The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell, the place of everlasting punishment.”
L’s the RC doctrinal statement on hell is actually more definitive that that of the SBC when you compare them.
We say the unrighteous will be “consigned to Hell”….
RCs state those who die in a state of mortal sin “descend into hell”….
Both the RC and the SBC in their official doctrinal statements speak of hell as a “place” of punishment. Although the CR are more specific as to the state of the damned.
RCs state hell is where the damned suffer the punishments of hell,”eternal fire”
Seems the RC statement is far more “fundamental” in nature than is the SBC statement about the existence of a place known as hell where the damned experience the literal fire of hell and even worse, the absence of the presence of God.
L’s, it is a place, the fire is real, the absence of the presence of God will be absolute.
So why not just take the Word of Jesus about hell as David Mills said? L’s why not just repent of sin and believe the biblical gospel and escape the horror of hell?
Strangely, there are some things Christ said in the Bible that fundamentalists choose not take literally.
If those in my Church understand this, and respect that as your way,
then I am proud of the people of my faith.
L’s,
Many of us have seen horror. I have said more than once that war is hell no matter how large or small. And frankly, what happened to the Jews during the 40′s is not the only Holocaust. What happened in Nigeria over the last 39 years and Angola and in many other places could also be called a Holocaust. L’s even America is involved in a Holocaust of its own relating to the unborn. But, in all truth, war and the slaughter of the innocent is not hell in comparison to what hell is for the lost, the damned, those who have not been born again.
L’s, hell is not on this earth, but hell is coming for all who do not repent and believe the biblical gospel before they leave this earth. And it is Hell that is hell, L’s, and nothing else really is or will be.
Hi C.B.
I have read your ‘interpretation’ of the meaning of our catechism.
Now, I give you the viewpoint of John Paul II:
“The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather* than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell’” (n. 1033).
“Eternal damnation”, therefore, is not attributed to God’s initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God’s judgement ratifies this state.”
As you can see, there is some difference. Of course, there is. But I have read what you wrote respectfully, and I have tried to understand.
That is a good thing, I think.
L’s,
Would you mind explaining what you meant by this statement?
“If those in my Church understand this, and respect that as your way,
then I am proud of the people of my faith.”
I really don’t understand what you meant by that or the context of which you are speaking. What does it mean?
L’s,
If I am not mistaken the context of the Pope’s commentary was about free will and man’s own accountability for being condemned to hell. I could be mistaken but he was not actually refuting the literal existence of hell or the eternal fire of hell and the fact that the damned descend into hell.
L’s, The exact doctrinal statement is as I stated it quoting #1035 of the Catechism.
L’s I quoted it exactly as it is stated. Here it is again:
“The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.”
It is pretty plain L’s. The RC position is that Hell is a literal place, the fire is eternal, the damned descend into Hell for all eternity and are absolutely beyond the presence of God which is the greater part of their damnation.
Well, it’s like this.
The people of my faith have literally taken some of Christ’s Words to mean exactly what He said;
and others we accept as ‘imagery’ or ‘symbolic’.
The people of your faith do the same, only with different verses emphasized for ‘literal interpretation’ or ‘merely symbolic’.
The people of my faith understand this. It is respected that Christians of other denominations may not interpret Scriptures as we interpret them, but we believe that we are united with them in the Body of Christ, although we are not yet ‘in full communion’ with them.
We are also aware that there are some from other denominations that may not share our point of view. But we can always respect diversity among Christians. we have the hope that they will always be centered on Christ the Lord. And we hope that someday the Holy Spirit will bring Christians into unity, in accordance with Christ’s own prayer for unity.
Last thing tonight L’s,
I quoted the Catechism correctly. I think you know that.
But, nonetheless, you can interpret it as you please, So could John Paul II. So can cb.
But the bottom line is Jesus spoke of a literal Hell and a literal fire in that literal Hell. He actually spoke more of Hell than Heaven in the NT Gospels.
The Scripture literally teaches that lost people are already condemned. And the final state of that condemnation is to be spent in a place called Hell where the “fire is not quenched and the worn never dies.”
I think you and I should believe Jesus. Jesus was literal about Hell and how to escape it.
Good night, C.B.
I enjoyed our dialogue.
The title of this post is “How Lost People See Us?”
However, I think the better question is, “How Do We See Lost People?”
In Matthew 9, we read that when Jesus saw the crowds, “he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd.” (ESV)
Maybe Barna could spend their research dollars better by studying the perceptions of believers toward non-believers; maybe we ought to ponder how our own attitudes and priorities fail to match up to the compassion and zeal that Jesus had. I certainly need to examine myself in this regard!
-Katie
Katie,
Amen
David
“Again, I ask….”will anything really change their perception of us? Do we honestly think that the lost crowd will ever view us in a truly positive light? I mean, if we really live for God, and preach the Gospel?””
The first thing I thought of when I read this were some of the testimony’s of the state/church people when they condemned the ‘heretics’ (As in those who refused to be a part of the state/church)
The testimony’s usually went something like this: Hans is an honest hard working man who helps the poor, never lies, is a good citizen blah, blah…but he refused to allow his child to be baptized (or he refused the sacrament because he says the wafer is not really Christ’s Body…)
So, here were “Christians” torturing and executing other believers. But, the witness of these heretics was real because of their lives lived according to the Word. It impressed many and we know the blood of these martyrs actually grew the “heretic” Body. Many longed to be in a real Body of Christ. Eventually, some of their descendents came to America.
In this scenerio the lost were the state church (Both Catholic and Reformed) persecuting believers for non conformity. So, who was hating whom here?
CB, Your effort seems futile, but I applaud you. What is shocking to anyone who wants to check it out is how often Jesus speaks of hell in some form or another. I would advise Christiane to read through the Gospels and underline each time Jesus Christ speaks of it even metaphorically as sheep/goats, in parables such as branches thrown in the fire, etc. Doing this exercise makes it clear that a Gospel without thistruth is no Gospel at all. This truth is what makes the Cross and resurrection meaningful. Otherwise, Jesus just becomes another nice assessory in our lives with no real understanding of why He did what He did and what for. It is the plastic fish syndrome.
Hey, a little off subject here…but, could yall take a few minutes to help my daughter finish a class? She’s scheduled to graduate in May from Union University. This survey is for a class project. Thanks for helping. Here’s the link….
“http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.surveymonkey.com%2Fs%2FH95BYFZ&h=2be8d4af910628a911676c577158c79b”>
Well, I cant figure out how to make this a hot link, so unless Wes, or Scott come in here and fix this; I’m gonna have to ask yall to copy and paste. Thanks.
Volfie
You little ball of hate you – I answered your daughters survey
Jim champion
Jim,
Thanks. Where in the world have you been?
David
David,
I did your daughter’s survey. One point not covered: although I live in a city of some 50,000, I cannot think of a single locally-owned pharmacy here. There is one in the community to our south, about half our size, and older, more established, but I would not drive the half hour so so to patronize it. Now it’s time for shameless self-promotion. The book my daughter illustrated, “The Sad Santa” is available at Amazon.com, as well as through http://www.santa4christ.com She also has several drawings & some hand-thrown pottery available through tomorrow on eBay. Search either for “Fariss” or auctions in which the seller is “heritage-matters”.
As to the subject of this posting: you (I believe) and others here have said that you could not, should not change, regardless of what any survey found. Of course the message does not change, but its medium does, with different people, different cultures, etc. Although there was no formal survey involved, didn’t Paul say, “I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.” If Barna or any other researcher finds something that will assist us in reaching others for Christ, why should we not take advantage of it, and in doing so, immitate Paul as he is immitating Christ?
John Fariss
John Fariss,
You are right about Paul. And you are right that the principles of the gospel are unchanging, but the methods of sharing the principles will constantly change. (I realize you did not say it exactly as I have interpreted you, but I think I interpret you correctly, do I not?)
Yet it also must be remembered that even though Paul became “….all things….” people still hated him to the point of stoning him, chasing him from place to place and finally cutting off his head.
You and I are going to be hated John. It is the nature of who we are. Jesus told us to expect it. Those who follow Christ will be hated, lied to and about. We will not get the invitations that lost people get. We will be ignored. Polls containing the views of those who Jesus said love darkness rather than light will always “darken” our image. They will do so because it is what they are supposed to do. Lost people act like lost people and rightfully so. That is why they need our witness so badly. (But I know you know that.)
The problem for us is that so many of us act as the lost. The lost do not want us to act like them and they call us hypocrites when we do and rightfully so. (And I know you know that also)
As far as the poll is concerned: You don’t know my opinion and I chose to share it with you if you don’t mind. My opinion is that it means two things:
1. The witness of many Christians is valid so the world hates us as a whole.
2. The witness of many Christians is hypocritical so the world hates us as a whole.
I have one observation resulting from the findings of the poll:
There are many people who claim to be Christians who are not and this taints the Christians witness as a whole.
John,
First of all, why did your link show up as a hot linnk in your comment, and my did not?????? Wes????? Scott?????? What’s going on here?
Secondly, thanks for taking the survey. I’m not real sure what they could do about the no locally owned pharmacies thing in their study. Maybe that will be one of the results of their study…that Mom and Pop pharmacies have gone the way of the horse and buggy. I’m not sure. But, thanks for helping her.
Thirdly, CB answered your last comment very well. John, I’m not against tweaking things about our worship in order to fit the culture better. I hear people say this about us “BI” fellas, and I’m just not sure why people think that. I’m also for being creative in our outreach. What we’re not for is people throwing doctrine to the wayside, in order to “fit into culture.” We’re not for churches doing “wild, extreme, foolish” things..all in the name of getting bigger crowds….with bigger crowds equaling success.
But, again, I think CB nailed it. The lost crowd…on the whole…are always gonna view Christians in a negative light. The Bible promises us this. It tells us that this is the way it’s gonna be. But also, I do agree with CB and others in this comment thread that Christians, or those people who call themselves Christians, also do things and live in ways that make the lost have a bad taste in their mouthes about “Christians.”
But again, as I said before….Christ Followers could be as loving and kind and faithful to God as they can possibly be….and the lost crowd would still say negative things about us. The lost crowd, overall, likes to point out every mistake, every shortcoming, and every failure..all in an attempt to disprove the truth of the Gospel. They do not, and they will not, like the claims of the Gospel; nor will they ever like the fact that the Bible calls sin what it is.
David
DW,
I’m not sure if you were referring to me or not when you were talking about Jews, Muslims, etc. I never referred to any of that. I humbly bowed out of this conversation with you when I realized there would be no dialogue about reaching lost people. Then when L’s and CB decided to hijack the thread, I lost interest. Sorry, maybe another day
The thing we have to be careful about is taking the world’s “hate” as validation. The world may well hate us for the right reasons, ie: what Jesus was talking about. But they may also hate us for reasons we need to take note of. Let’s face it, the folks at Westboro Baptist are hated by practically everyone, because frankly they are nearly inhuman monsters. They likely look at their “persecution” as validation of what they are doing. We must be careful not to fall into the same error.
So when we see polls like this, assuming they are scientifically valid, we should take the seriously, point by point. The homosexuality issue for example, it is true that we should not recede from our position about the sinfulness of any sexual behavior outside of heterosexual marriage. But I think a fair argument could be made that many evangelicals are obsessed with homosexuality.
Some of the perception make be due to very prominent culture warriors who, it may be argued, put the cart before the horse. In other words they seem to be attempting to impose a Christian morality on non-Christians.
So we need to examine ourselves, so that any “hate” that comes our way is for the right reasons, and not just because we’re jerks.
How do lost people see us? Well, it doesn’t help when the SBC circles the wagons around lying seminary presidents. I’ve got Ergun Caner of Liberty Baptist Seminary in mind here. Just a thought, but you guys might want to actually listen to the charges and see if they are true instead of circling the wagons. Kind of makes the church look bad.
CB,
You wrote, “And you are right that the principles of the gospel are unchanging, but the methods of sharing the principles will constantly change. (I realize you did not say it exactly as I have interpreted you, but I think I interpret you correctly, do I not?)” Yes, I think you did.
You also said, “Yet it also must be remembered that even though Paul became ‘….all things….’ people still hated him to the point of stoning him, chasing him from place to place and finally cutting off his head.” Yes, they did. But does this mean every unsaved person who encountered Paul hated him? I think not. It is a generalization, bordering on Middle Eastern hyperbole, although founded in truth. There are those Christians who seem to “wear” earning the hatred every unsaved person they encounter like a red badge of courage, for which Jesus will say to them, “Well done, good and faithful servant.” This ties right back into what you said a little later, “The problem for us is that so many of us act as the lost,” although frankly, we might disagree as to when that is. No doubt we would agree that a Christian is acting like a lost person when they indulge in a lifestyle of sin, in whatever way it might be manifested. I suggest that we are acting like the lost when we engage in judgmental attitudes towards them too as one of those lifestyles of sin. Or maybe it is just be a matter of spiritual gifts. Perhaps you, perhaps David W., certainly others, have a gift of discerning what is sinful (or wrong?) about a person’s lifestyle and confronting them with it. Certainly others, maybe myself, have a gift of finding common ground with people and engaging them with the Gospel through this. We both have caveats: the person gifted to confront must be careful not to believe every opinion he or she forms is a message from God to be screamed at the top of their lungs, and those of us who have gifts more consistent with relational evangelism must remember that there is a time to confront just as there is a time to refrain.
And all that said, it still seems to me that we should take surveys like the Barna one seriously, and let it (partially of course) inform our methodology and our attitudes.
John
John,
Amen. Thanks for saying what I was trying to say. You just said it a lot better!
Hi MICHAEL McGIRT,
I liked what you wrote originally as much as John’s comment. If you go back and look at my comment number number 36.
Sorry that you found my dialogue with C.B. totally off-topic. My bad.
Don’t blame C.B.
Christiane
Since C.B. and Christiane are doing the Catholic-dance again, I thought I’d ask what Brother C.B. thinks about the esteemed Benjamin Cole joining the Church of Rome (as reported by his former employer WB at BaptistLife.com)?
Well, that’s a big surprise. I mean, he worked for Don Quixote in Enid so he couldn’t have had any kind of doctrinal backbone.
BIg Daddy,
I think Wade is a Narcissistic Antagonist who talks too much about too many people with absolutely no concern for the consequences for those who he talks about, no matter who they are as long as his talking about them fulfills his emotional need for self-gratification.
Big Daddy,
Let me define what I mean by a “Narcissistic Antagonist.”
A Narcissistic Antagonist is a person who on the basis of nonsubstantive evidence, go out of their way to make insatiable demands of others, usually attacking the person or performance of others to fulfill an exaggerated emotional need for self-gratification. Their attacks on others is always selfish and self-serving in nature. Their emotionally, driven desire to tear others down is in order to build themselves up. Since the Narcissistic Antagonist has such an exaggerated emotional need for self-gratification, they also have a delusional concept of their own self-importance in any social structure of which they are involved. Therefore they usually, but not always, attack people in leadership capacities within the social structure of their involvement.
I should rephrase: I don’t know whether WB really fits the definition offered above. I don’t know him personally; only observed him via the blogosphere and message boards for quite some time. I do think he likes to pat himself on the back more than the average Joe.
John Fariss,
I can agree with much of what you say in comment #83.
But in order to have no muddy water between us let me make a few things clear within your comment:
“You also said, “Yet it also must be remembered that even though Paul became ‘….all things….’ people still hated him to the point of stoning him, chasing him from place to place and finally cutting off his head.” Yes, they did. But does this mean every unsaved person who encountered Paul hated him?”
I did not say every lost person who encountered Paul hated him. I hope every lost person you encounter does not hate you. I know that not every lost person I encounter hates me.
” I think not. It is a generalization, bordering on Middle Eastern hyperbole, although founded in truth. There are those Christians who seem to “wear” earning the hatred every unsaved person they encounter like a red badge of courage, for which Jesus will say to them, “Well done, good and faithful servant.”
John, I know many guys like you describe. I am not on of them and neither is Vol. A major part of my life relates to intentional involvement with lost people.
“This ties right back into what you said a little later, “The problem for us is that so many of us act as the lost,” although frankly, we might disagree as to when that is. No doubt we would agree that a Christian is acting like a lost person when they indulge in a lifestyle of sin, in whatever way it might be manifested. I suggest that we are acting like the lost when we engage in judgmental attitudes towards them too as one of those lifestyles of sin.Or maybe it is just be a matter of spiritual gifts. Perhaps you, perhaps David W., certainly others, have a gift of discerning what is sinful (or wrong?) about a person’s lifestyle and confronting them with it.”
John, any person who understands the Scripture can detect sin as it manifests itself in the lives of people. There is no real judgement to it.
Certainly others, maybe myself, have a gift of finding common ground with people and engaging them with the Gospel through this.
John, much of my time is spent in finding such “common ground” of which you speak. I think Vol’s does also.
We both have caveats: the person gifted to confront must be careful not to believe every opinion he or she forms is a message from God to be screamed at the top of their lungs,
John, I don’t scream. I don’t have to. Frankly, I seem to be too “cold-blooded” to scream at people if you know what I mean and, in your case, I think you do.
“and those of us who have gifts more consistent with relational evangelism must remember that there is a time to confront just as there is a time to refrain.
And all that said, it still seems to me that we should take surveys like the Barna one seriously, and let it (partially of course) inform our methodology and our attitudes.”
John, Did I say not to take the Barna survey seriously? No. But I will go ahead and be arrogant and say; I didn’t need to read it in the first place. I am constantly involved with lost people who have met people like you describe, so I already know what they think and why.
L’s,
Don’t pay much attention to McGirt in anything he says to you that might involve me. He is probably still angry at me for busting his chops a few posts back so he is getting in a few spinning back-kicks to even the score.
L’s, I’ll be glad to talk to you about Catholic theology anytime…….that is, if you don’t mind me throwing in a little biblical theology and the gospel in also from time-to-time. :-)
Big Daddy,
I just realized I did not give the substance of your question a fair treatment.
Let me answer it like this: Ben Cole is my friend. And I don’t care if he becomes a Hindu Snake-Charmer or VooDoo Witch-doctor, he is still my friend. I may not like it, but he is still my friend.
My 16 year old grandson works at Pizza Hut.
He came home recently complaining that the “Christians” who ate there were the rudest and the cheapest when it came to tips.
Now if a 16 year old can discern that from a part time job……..Well, you get the picture.
Jim Shaver,
You son is right as rain about Christians being terrible tippers. And then some of them try to leave a tract instead of a tip.
I ate with a guy once who said, “Don’t leave any money cb, I will leave her a tract. That might just be the best tip she ever gets.”
Pitiful, but true.
BTW, I left a good tip. And I do wish Baptists would catch on to what your son is saying; Especially during the annual SBC.
Scott,
My name is Michael not McGirt, that’s borderline disrespectful and I know you wouldn’t be that way. As for “busting my chops” as you said, I have no idea what you’re talking about except for your incessant screaming at L’s, which I think everyone is tired of. But you keep yelling turn or burn, fly or fry and see how that works out for you.
Christiane,
You’re right. I didn’t even see that comment. Thanks. I’m not sure what all you believe. I just know that in my experience it’s never worked to yell, scream, and shove the Gospel down people’s throats. I never see Jesus yelling at anyone but the “religious” hypocrites. I can hear read and feel the anger in some of the comments and I don’t really understand. I know nothing. I’m trying to learn how to reach lost people. How to help the hurting without ever compromising the Gospel. I’m still learning. God bless you.
The ugliness that is shown here by those who disagree is sadly what Christians are often known for. It seems some Christians revel in their incivility to others including fellow Christians.
I wonder out loud what the purpose of this blog topic was?
McGirt,
I was not being disrespectful to you. It is just easier to type your last name. If you want to call me scott, that is fine with me. I don’t really care. But if you do get to where I think you are disrespectful, I’ll let you know.
But you are right about some things. You said:
“…. I don’t really understand. I know nothing….” You are right about that. Now, if you really want to learn hang around, or better yet, read some books.
BTW Mr. McGrit,
What was it that you have determined this time that I was screaming at L’s about?
Do you also embrace the idea there is no literal place known as hell which has a literal fire?
CB,
Tell you what, since you don’t understand English, MM would work fine then I’d know you were being respectful. I really don’t care honestly. I’ve been called a lot worse. And you’re right, I come as a learner, something you’ve obviously graduated from. I like to read here because you seem to know it all and I’m learning alot from you. I actually was referring to another post when you continued to call her Satan’s seed and Lucifer’s lovechild and son of Satan, you know all those Christ honoring names for lost folks. To answer your question, yes I do believe in a literal hell. I believe people go there. We’re trying our best to make it hard to go there from our city.
CB,
BTW you’re right, it is easier to type my last name than first. There’s one more letter in my first. That saves alot of time. Good call.
…your incessant screaming at L’s, which I think everyone is tired of…
incessant screaming–def. sharing the gospel with someone or telling them that it is repentance and faith in Christ alone that saves and that Christ is the only way to heaven
Joe,
Thanks for letting CB know how to share with someone. I agree with you.
MM,
That is good. MM gives you an independent identity as did McGrit, which by the way is a good and strong sounding name, far better than just calling you Michael of which there are so many here in Blogtown. Now, if the Rocker, M&M starts to post comments here would you prefer us to go back to calling you Michael or McGrit?
Now, let’s deal with you comment in #101.
You said: “I come as a learner, something you’ve obviously graduated from. I like to read here because you seem to know it all and I’m learning alot from you.”
I commend you for recognizing truth when you see it. So hang around and I will give special attention to teach you at least what your young mind can handle at this point. Have no fear though, I will not overload you with knowledge and cause your head to explode from the pressure of taking in so much more than it is accustomed.
You said, “I actually was referring to another post when you continued to call her Satan’s seed and Lucifer’s lovechild and son of Satan, you know all those Christ honoring names for lost folks.”
Now, MM, we can’t have this. You need to always be truthful. I never said any of the above about L’s. I realize you have filled your mind up to this point by watching trashy horror and thriller movies about devils and demons producing children with humans and you get things confused between reality and biblical truth. MM it is time for you to be a man now and lay aside childish things. We both know I did not call L’s “Satan’s seed, love child or son.” (BTW, L’s is a lady. She is not a man. Pay more attention)
What I did say was that L’s is of her father the Devil because she is lost and does not know Christ as her Lord and Savior according to her own confession. Were she to know Christ, she would be the child of God. No longer would she be a lost child of the Devil.
So, MM, here is your first lessons for today. Learn them well.
1. Stop watching trashy movies about demons and devils having children with humans and forget that “seed of Satan and love-child of the Devil stuff you have filled your youthful mind up with to this point.
2. Read and diligently study the Scripture so you will understand what we are talking about when we make correct biblical and theological references relating to the unsaved.
Lastly, I am glad you know there is a literal Hell. Therefore, pray for L’s that she now go there and go out and warn the lost in your community of its reality that they might repent and believe the biblical gospel and escape its horrors also.
Now, that is going to be a pretty vast amount for you to get your mind around today MM. But in truth, I may not be able to stay with you much today anyway, for I have to help some other fellows like you to learn a few things. You know how it is here in the big city, like Barney Fife says, “Its go, go, go.”
Your faithful servant and mentor,
cb
Joe,
I also want to thank you for trying to help MM with his education. Please do what you can for him today in my absence. Maybe together we can help him not to go the way of the Wild Geese such as did poor ole Tom Parker and our other feathered friends from various parts of the country. :-)
CB,
Yes, thank you for that vast wealth of knowledge you poured on this morning. I don’t know how my small brain will ever understand all that the Bishop All-Knowing CB has to teach me this morning, but I shall try. I know you didn’t call L’s all of those names, I figured you would understand a little exaggeration. I’ve seen it from time to time in your comments. I don’t watch any movies that you speak of so not sure how to answer that. I do study Scripture and am seeking to do just that-engage our culture with the Gospel and tell them Jesus loves them and died for their sins. As for you teaching other young minds, that’s just scary but maybe they will learn, as will I
CB,
Also if you promise to help me with your wealth of theological knowledge, I promise to help you with grammar and syntax. I know it’s tough being from Alabama and all. My sister lives there she struggles with it too.
MM,
I really do have to go now, but one last thing….or two.
1. Leave off the exaggeration when you are talking about a specific incident and we will not have to scold you.
2. As far as the other young minds; Thank you for your concern. I will let them know. I am sure they will get a kick out of knowing you care. And as to their learning, They have learned. They are learning. They will will learn even more. I just wish you could come and join them in person.
But, I know you can’t today so I will leave you in my friend Joe’s capable hands. He certainly knows how to teach you how not to go the way of the Wild Geese like Tom Parker has gone. :-)
CB,
I’ve personally seen you interact with folks you see regularly, but are not saved. I’m betting none of them “hate you”. None.
I’d bet next month’s Social Security check on it. If I were a betting man. You pretty well embody what my first “mentor” said .. “If you would win some, be winsome”.
As to hell being or not being a literal place, you have to toss out, or “explain away”, a lot of stuff Jesus said about hell, if you didn’t want to believe it was a literal place. And of all the words in the Bible, His are the one’s I’m least apt to try to explain away.
A pretty good example of that seems to be the rich man who saw Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom. That does seem to be a message.
Michael: I can also testify that CB Scott has nowhere near “graduated from” (being a learner). I’ve witnessed that for just about four years.
Personally.
Derek Davis,
First of all, maybe you’re not aware that Liberty is not a SB school?
Secondly, I guess you’re the Judge and Jury on this subject? about Dr. Caner? Do you really think that you know every thing about what’s going on with this?
Thirldy, this post is not about Dr. Caner. Please stay on topic as much as possible. Thanks.
David
Michael McGirt,
In one comment you said that you lost interest in this conversation, and seemed to be not coming back…then you go on to make many more comments.
lol
Jim Shaver,
I used to work at a Pizza Hut, as well. I worked there for nearly 3 years as a teen. I was lost back then. In fact, I got saved during the time that I was working there. I couldnt have told you if Christians left good tips, or not. I really didnt keep up with it. I really didnt care one way or the other.
I do agree that Christians should leave good tips to be a good witness, especially if they’re gonna leave a tract. And, people going to resaurants after Church should act like they’ve been to Church. I agree. My future son in law works at Cracker Barrel, along with his college roommate. They can tell you some stories about how some people act after leaving Church. It’s not good. But, they are not the majority.
John, again, Brother, let me just back up what CB said. I dont go around hollering at people about their sins. lol. Good grief, Charlie Brown. Also, you’re right that not every lost person is gonna hate us. I did not say that. I also try to cultivate a relationship with lost people to show them the love and grace of God…hoping that I might be able to win them to Jesus someday. So, again, where do yall get this stuff about me and CB and some others hollering at people about their sins…..or, that we go around telling people that they’re living in sin. lol.
Now, if the subject comes up, or if I’m preaching and teaching the Bible, and they’re in attendance at my Church, and I mention the sin or sins that they’re living in….well, you know, if that makes them uncomfortable, or mad, or upset…then, I’m sorry. They’ll just have to get mad.
But, Brother, I know of a Pastor of a large, conservative, SB church, who told an evangelist friend of mine that he could not speak about Hell, sin, or judgment on Sunday morning. He said that it would cause the Sunday morning crowd to be turned off, or make them feel uneasy. Do you agree with things like this?
David
DW,
I did lose interest until good old CB raised his head up in my business again. But no worries, it’s been great catching up with him.
Bob,
That’s great, you know him much better than I. I can only read his comments to me and make inferences. For example:
“…. I don’t really understand. I know nothing….” You are right about that. Now, if you really want to learn hang around, or better yet, read some books. and
I commend you for recognizing truth when you see it. So hang around and I will give special attention to teach you at least what your young mind can handle at this point.
If that sounds like a learner that doesn’t know it all to you, fine. To me it does. Maybe it was just sarcasm, which I accept and use much of myself, no big deal. Glad that he is helping.
JOhn,
Also, to go along with comment #113, again I say to you,”What do you think would happen, if you went on Oprah, or some other talk show on TV, and you were as loving and nice as you could be. But, then, Oprah, or TV talk show host, asked you if you thought homosexuality was a sin against God? What do you think the response of the crowd would be?” I mean, what if a talk show host asked you if you really believed that all sex outside of the marriage of one man to one woman was sinful? Do you think the crowd would be nice about it? What if the talk show host asked you if ONLY CHRISTIANS GO TO HEAVEN? And, you answered as nice and sweet as you could that only Christ Followers go to Heaven. What do you honestly think that the reaction of the lost crowd…overall….in general….will be towards you?
If Richard Land, or Dr. Mohler, or Johnny Hunt, or Jerry Rankin, or Max Lucado, or whoever that’s a well known Believer; were asked these questions on a TV talk show, or major news show, what do you think the reaction of the lost world would be????????
David
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David,
Are you tslking to me in comment #115? If so, where did that nonsense come from?
John
John,
Nonsense? What is nonsense about what I just said? I was asking you hypothetical questions about the reaction of the lost crowd to you answering those type of questions in front of an audience of “lost people.” What’s nonsensical about that?
Are you saying that these kind of questions would never be asked of a well known Believer, especially a Preacher, on a TV talk show? I’ve seen these questions asked of a Believers,or some just as probing, that the lost crowd would not like to hear.
John, why would you not answer what I’ve asked in comment #115? I would answer them in a heart beat.
David
David,
Why would I not answer your questions in a heartbeat? Because you (I think, or at least some of the BI folks) ask me this or very similar questions periodically when I join in discussions with y’all. And it’s not as if I ever said anything which suggests I believe “everyone goes to heaven” or that “there are many routes to God.” I have answered such questions before, but this time, it just sat heavy-handed and wrong with me. As far as I know, you have not been appointed the SBC Hall Monitor. I assume this goes back to my comment at #83; but it dealt more with our attitudes than with the strict theological content of our words, with judgmentalism rather than discernment, with giftedness (and certainly you agree that not every Christian has all spiritual gifts, or that all have the same gifts) rather than a single uniform way of interacting.
John
John Faris:
007 and Tim Rogers really must believe that they are as you said:”SBC Hall Monitor(S).
John,
How could someone read what I wrote to you, and you come to the conclusions that you did from my comment…is…well….beyond me. I asked the questions of you….not to try to trap you into spouting something unBiblical. I did not ask you the questions to try to theologically trap you in a corner. How in the world did you see anything like you’ve written to me in comment #119 out of the questions I asked you? I just cant understand it at all.
John, I asked you those questions to try to get you to see that answering those questions, in a TV talk show with an audience of lost folks, would result in them booing and hissing at you. I was actually thinking that you would answer in the Biblical way…that homosexuality is a sin against God. That all people dont go to Heaven. And, when you did, then you’d see the reason that I wrote the OP in the first place….which I didnt think you were getting it.
John, Brother, Dude, how in the world did you get out there, where you’re writing what you are in comment #119??????
I’m just saying that the lost crowd…in general….overall…for the most part….will not applaud Christians….will not like Christians….will see Christians in a negative light…will probably persecute Christians. The example I was trying to give you was one of an Oprah crowd…like, if you were being interviewed by her about Christian beliefs, and she asked you how you felt about homosexuality, or adultery, or fornication; whether it was really a sin, or not. And, you, John, answered in the nicest way possible that, yes, the Bible does teach that its sin. I was simply asking you what did you think the reaction of Oprah and her crowd would be?
You’re the one, who called my hypothetical situation “nonsense.” I just simply asked why you’d call it nonsense? And, why were you being reluctant to answer the HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION AND QUESTIONS SURROUNDING IT? I was not questioning whether you believed in many routes to Heaven, nor whether you believed that homosexuality was a sin. Good grief, Charlie Brown. I just could not understand your reluctance to answer my questions…about the crowds reaction.
David
Tom,
There’s an abandoned, spooky looking house in Milan, TN that needs haunting. You up for it?
David
David,
Let me put it this way: you asked me (and frankly it did did not come across as a polite request, but almost as a demand) to comment in a situation where you presuppose you could judge the responses of Oprah or some other talk-show host, and an unsaved crowd. I suggest David, and I say this with all due respect, that the response of the crowd would depend largely of their perceived evaluation of the attitude of the speaker. In other words, if the speaker came across with the love and compassion of a Billy Graham or a Mother Teresa, there would be one response; while if the speaker came across as a culture warrior or someone otherwise beligerant, judgmental, and just looking for a fight, the response would be vastly different.
And as for not getting your original OP, David, I did get it. The problem is, I don’t think you get how judgmental, ready to oppose anything that does not affirm your preconceptions, and (at times) downright vicious you can sound. And I don’t know, maybe in person, you are not that way at all, but in print and through the medium of a blog, you come across first as being proud that you have it all figgured out, and second as one spoiling for a fight with anyone who disagrees with you. Please pardon my bluntness here, but I can think of no other way to put it. And in spite of that, I would like to know you better, and would love to sit down and enjoy a plate of good barbeque (at least as long as they used eastern NC-southern VA vinegar-based sauce) with you.
John
John,
I’ve seen TV talk shows with Christians on them, who were not belligerent, nor judgmental; but just simply, honestly discussed the topic. It was an angry reaction of the crowd. Kind of in the lines of…”How dare he judge others about their sexuality”…or, “Who does he think he is telling everyone how to live?”…..etc.
I’ve seen the crowds in the audience respond in an angry way towards a Christian, who just told the truth. The Christian was not angry. The Christian was not acting mean. They just simply, lovingly told the truth.
John, I just give up trying to discuss this with you, Brother. I honestly see no way in this world you could read what I’ve written here and have seen arrogant, mean spirited, judgmental, visciousness in what I’ve written. I’m not spoiling for a fight. I dont even like to fight, although I do when I have to. And, if simply sharing my thoughts and opinions on matters is “having it all figured out” then I guess the only other answer is for me to stop sharing what I think about things. Why wouldnt I tell things like I see it? Why would I not share what I think about something? These are my thoughts and feelings on the issues at hand.
All I’m simply saying is that the Bible has promised us that the world, in general, will not applaud our Christians lives. Right? The lost crowd, or non-Christians, will not like us for speaking the truth in love….especially when their lostness and their sin is exposed. Right? Jesus promised us that the worldly crowd would persecute us in many different ways….did He not? Does the Bible not teach that those people, who seek to live godly, in Christ Jesus, shall suffer persecution? And, John, who do you think will do the persecuting?
David
John,
If we ever meet, where we can eat BBQ together, then I’ll buy the first round.
David
Comment from Geoff Baggett concerning Franklin Graham and the Pentagon situation: “(Tongue firmly planted in cheek) Shame on you, Franklin Graham … for saying that some who follow Islam do violent acts in the name of their religion, and for saying that women are treated like property in the Islamic world. Don’t tell us the truth – tell us what we want to hear in our imaginary, warm, fuzzy world.”
David Worley,
Hey sorry you considered my comment off topic. I think it is spot on. When we talk about how the church is seen from the outside, the biggest pink elephant in the room is the issue of how the church handles public sin from within. Hence, my bringing up a current cover up.
I don’t think I’m the judge and jury of the Ergun Caner debacle, sir. I just judge that if someone says they were born in Turkey and later Sweden, there is a lie. If they say multiple times they’ve debated someone whom they have never met, there is a lie. Sorry for the examples, I was just pointing out how your judgement of my judgment is misguided.
Keep on shining that light.
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