I heard a Pastor say that we should not teach and preach the Bible verse by verse, because the people will just not get it. That expository preaching is just for preachers; that only preachers would understand it. Thus, we should not preach and teach the Bible. But, instead, we should preach what we think the people would want to hear. And, this fella also seemed to be justifying his remarks by the fact that he has a big crowd at his Church on Sunday.
Another Pastor told me, one time, that a certain fella went crazy on the Bible. He said that the man started studying his Bible, too much, and it caused him to lose his mind!
I’d like to know what your thoughts are on these two statements. And, is a “big crowd” what’s the measure of success in a church? Is Bible preaching, or expository preaching, or text driven preaching not the way to go, if you really want to be a successful Pastor?
Maybe we should have the Holy Ghost Hokie Pokie at our Churches, in order to get the crowd coming?!!? Peter Lumpkins had this video at his blog, and it reminded me of what some Pastors and Churches do in their attempt to be “relevant” and gain a big crowd. I mean, if a big crowd is our measure of success, and we’re willing to just preach shallow, fluffy, psychological, self help messages to gain the crowd, then shouldn’t we look to things like the Hokie Pokie, or Christian Country line dancing, maybe, depending on your culture, to “reach” people; to get the crowds? Take a look.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTPowYQ-jVU
I’d really like to hear your thoughts on this.
DW:
One person makes this comment–”Thus, we should not preach and teach the Bible.”– and it becomes a blog topic, whatever.
If you are a pastor, and you are unable to study or preach through a specific Bible verse or passage in the power of the Holy Spirit, maybe you should try another profession. McDonalds is hiring.
1. I agree, a big crowd should not be the measure of success in a church.
2. However, out of a sense of good stewardship, we should be trying to impact as many people as possible, with the gifts and resources God commends into our hands.
3. What impacts people more than anything else, is sound preaching/teaching of the Word of God.
4. It helps, in our exposition of the Word of God, if we are able to do it in a way that people are able to understand what it says, and are motivated to pay attention to what we are saying.
5. There are different styles of preaching/teaching that help people to better understand the Word of God, and to be motivated to pay attention to what it says. God gives different people different gifts, and styles of communication in which they are effective. We should not judge people for using styles that are non-traditional, if indeed they are being faithful to the Word of God, and are being used to explain it in ways that people are able to understand it, and be motivated to pay attention to what it says.
6. The Holy Ghost Hokie-Pokie is indeed WAY over the top.
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Tom,
Is that the only part that you read?
Robert,
Agree.
David Rogers,
1. agree
2. agree
3. agree
4. agree
5. agree, I think. Depends.
6. agree
Wow, David….this is a very unusual day. :)
Well, the SuperBowl draws a large crowd, I guess we should model our churches after the superbowl… dumb.
This is a great example of how people (Pastors?!?) have failed to see and understand the power of the Gospel.
As I wrote yesterday, faithfulness rarely equals comfort. Preaching the gospel in its true and unvarnished form will rarely/never be comfortable. As Jesus said in John the “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.”
We are called to be faithful to the Gospel as it has been given to us. We need to preach the bible faithfully. It is up to God to grow the fruit (Eph 3:16-17).
David W.,
I am pretty confident that we agree on at least 95% of theological issues overall. It’s just that the other 5% ends up being the majority of what ends up being discussed on the blogs.
Forgive me for sounding uncharitable. This conceit is alive and well in my own heart. This is the public version of the private struggle I go through when sharing my faith with people who are dead in sin.
Do I want to tell the homosexual that his “lifestyle” is in revolt against God? No. I really don’t _want_ to tell him. But that is part of the Gospel too.
We cannot water it down for the sake of popularity. We’ll be guiding people straight to hell.
Big crowds do not equal success in God’s eyes, or such is my reading of the Bible. In fact, big crowds can make it too easy for people to reject their calling, and just be anonymous pew-sitters. I once had a lady tell me that when Christ began convicting her, she began going to church every Sunday. Yep. . . every Sunday to a different church (she was living in Chicago at the time), and every one of them with several hundred in attendance, so she could remain anonymous. Of course, smaller churches are not immune to “pew-sitteritidus,” but hopefully, it is a little more difficult. In ours (125 – 150 worship attendance) we have people who come, never give anyone their address or phone number (some even give us ficticious ones), then drift out with as little fanfare as when they drifted in. But at least we try to engage them.
“Relevance” is a little more difficult; and at the risk of sounding too “Cinitonesque,” it depends on how you define the word. Some churches are so “relevant” to culture, that they have no hope of transforming or impacting their culture with the Gospel; while others, in rejecting “relevance” become so old-fashioned-for-the-sake-of-being-old-fashioned that outside their own membership, no one will hear the Good News from them. I am one of those who believes we should preach with the Bible in one hand and today’s newspaper in the other. We are, after all, to address people where they live, just as Jesus did, and the prophets before Him.
Which brings up the subject of preaching: my perspective is this: we each have different gifts. Some are gifted to preach one way, some another. The trick is to discern how best you are gifted to proclaim the Gospel, then to follow that God-given path. In seminary, I heard preaching professors say that a good story looses the congregation for at least 5 minutes, so for years, I avoided stories. But the simple fact is, I AM A STORYTELLER, AND THE SON OF A STORYTELLER, WHO WAS THE SON OF A STORYTELLER, and so on. I finally realized that if I told a story as an illustration, it might indeed loose the congregation; but if the story carried the message (rather than illustrating it), it propelled it forward.
And quite a few years ago I quit trying to measure success quantitatively. Befor that, I had charts measuring giving, attendance, and several other factors (don’t even remember what all now). Butt hey were not satisfying. Now it is, for me, simply whether I have been faithful to Christ and to the text, and I let the nether end drag.
John Fariss
David W,
Do not worry about Tom – he just loves to infer his knowing of our motives without really knowing. I for a fact know that many Pastors are asking this question daily! Great post and one that needs discussion regardless of age and approach!
Tim G.,
Thanks, Brother. How’s the weather in East TN? It’s been summertime over here in W. TN. It’s been great.
Zack, amen.
John, amen to what you said, too. But, like with David Rogers, I have to say…maybe…by storytelling and a newspaper, do you mean preaching and teaching the Bible while doing these things? I’m not talking about reading a passage and departing, never going back to the Bible again. You know what I mean? There are some Preachers, who’ll read a passage of Scripture at the beginning, and then they’ll preach a topical message that may, or may not, have anything to do with that passage of Scripture. And, some preachers will just use a verse to try to back up what they’re saying, or read a verse to just make it look like it’s a Biblical message.
You’re not talking about that, are you?
David,
Three words: “Text Driven Preaching”
Blessings,
Ron P.
DW:
I’ll make it easier for you. You tend to put up blogs that point people quite clearly to what you believe and others will comment and agree with you and that is ok with you but let someone take a different view and you and the others that agreed with you will immediately jump on them.–they are wrong!!
Sincere question: How do you see this type of blogging building up the Kingdom of God?
Does it always have to be your way?
Are you ever wrong in anything you do as a SBC pastor as you seem ready, willing, and able to criticize other SBC pastors or pastors of other denominations who differ from your views?
Re: the newspaper, what I mean is seeking and/or proclaiming how the Bible, would address the real world problems people today encounter, coupled with of course a savingf relationship with Jesus Christ. That does not dilute the Gospel IMHO, but is exactly what Jesus so often preached: a living faith addressing people who lived in the real world.
As far as storytelling/my being a storytller, I am not absolutely sure how you mean “preaching and teaching the Bible while doing these things.” If you mean what I think you mean, then yes, I am preaching and teaching the Bible through doing this. If that is not what you mean, then please clarify for me and I will respond.
John
By the way David: while I was in seminary, there was one chapel speaker who preached there in the way you mention. At least I thought he read a text, though his message was not about it. Others there said they heard no text at all. No, he was not a raving liberal. He was one of the lights of the CR, and either then or later (I don’t recall which), was president of the SBC. My recollection was that the entire message consisted of what he had said to this celebrity/public person or that one, and how it enhanced his ministry.
John
Brother Tom,
I do not disagree with you because I am a friend of Brother David Worley’s. I disagree with you because you say things I disagree with. I am a friend of Brother David’s and if you ever said something that I agreed with, I would tell you. However, Brother David could post that the sky is blue you would come on here and argue that it was not blue but a color that appears to be blue.
Tell you what. You come on here and present the areas of agreement that you have with Brother David’s post and I will be the first to Amen you.
Blessings,
Tim
I heard Henry Blackaby speak one time about I Peter 4:1 – “If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God”. He addressed pastors, teachers, leaders,… and he said that we have a responsibility & obligation to God to pray and find out what God wants to say to the people we are speaking / preaching to, and then to speak whatever it is He wants to say through His word (not what the people want to hear). People need to hear from God. It is hard to see how this is going to happen if His Word is not preached. Different people may have different styles, but we all have the humbling responsibility & obligation to God to deliver His words and messages.
sorry for the wrong reference in my previous post – it should be I Peter 4:11.
Tom Parker,
Put your right foot in…put your right foot out…put your right foot in and shake it all about….
DAvid
John,
I most certainly agree that we need to apply the Bible to people’s lives everytime we preach. That’s for certain, and amen. I guess I’m not really understanding what you mean by storytelling.
David
I agree with David Rogers.
That Hokie-Pokie thing actually makes you sad for people. There is just no way to be angry with them (I am not talking about the leaders. We should rebuke them) for they have been led astray. it is just very sad to watch.
Preaching the Bible, sharing a gospel witness and living a holy life before lost people is the only way to build a local NT church. It is also the hardest way. Maybe that is the problem.
CB,
Have you ever done the Hokie Pokie?
David :)
David,
Maybe I could put it this way: telling a story as a sermon illustration is using it as part of a deductive logic process; telling a story in order to carry the sermon (and hence the text) is more of an inductive logic process.
John
John Fariss,
I often use that method when preaching through the Four Gospels or the OT Histories. I used it this past Sunday.
Guys like Fred Craddock, Haddon Robinson and Eugene Lowery have written some good books (in my opinion anyway) on this method.
Vol,
I did the Hokie-Pokie when the SABANATION beat the VT HOKIE NATION in our opening game last September. :-)
I am ssure I will be doing some kind of dance on every game day this year too. I am really good at the “Tennessee Waltz” because I have had “so much practice” at it through the years. :-)
As a matter of fact Vol,
I have won dance contests while dancing to both: ROCKY TOP and SWEET HOME ALABAMA. :-)
CB,
I hope you’ll quit dancing at UT vs. Bama games real soon. ;)
John, I got’cha.
David
Vol,
Maybe this year you might like to join me as my partner, dancing the “Tennessee Waltz” while you comrades at SBC TODAY sing with the band.
I can hear Tim, Wes, Scott and Robin now; “I WAS DANCIN’ WITH MY DARLIN’ TO THE TENNESSEE WALTZ….” :-)
It would make a great Video. You guys could post it on SBC TODAY. :-)
Ron Phillips #12
I agree with you. Text Driven Preaching is needed in our pulpits (with one other addition I will explain later). Some do expository preaching, but focus on other issues that are not pertinent to what the text is saying. Instead of preaching what is being addressed in the text, we bring to the pulpit whatever issue may be on our mind and try to fit the text to our issue rather than allowing the text to drive the main point and sub points of the sermon. That is very dangerous because we are not speaking the Words of God, but our own and crafting a message that is not God illuminated from His text.
I have come to add one other item to the term Text Driven Preaching. I now speak of Spiritually Text Driven Preaching. While the Spirit would never have us say anything contrary to His Word, I do believe the Spirit should be with us through out the process from study to proclamation. That means He illuminates our minds during study and drives our text driven sermon to the people while He illuminates their mind and applies the truth of God’s Word.
Just some ideas that have developed in my mind since I began to work on my DMin 3 years ago.
BTW, how is the newly adopted child doing?
David Worley,
If you will perform the Holy Ghost Hokey-Pokey and post it on this site or any other I will pay good money to watch. If CB Scott will join you in the dance, I will pay triple.
Dave,
lol That would be a hoot. Maybe we’ll do the hokey pokey at the SBC.
David
Robin,
I would agree with you. Being scripturally correct is not enough if the Spirit of God is not part of the praying, researching, translation, exposition, proclamation, etc. Every aspect of the message from conception to delivery must be Spirit led.
Thanks for asking about our son. His adoption was final the day before we celebrated him being with us for two years. He has a number of issues and challenges ahead of him (and us), but God has been very good.
Blessings,
Ron P.
I once tried to get a wave going during the Baptist Convention of Iowa in Winterset. Maybe we can get a large group to join in the Holy Ghost Hokey Pokey in Orlando.
“Maybe we can get a large group to join in the Holy Ghost Hokey Pokey in Orlando.”
My Southern Baptist grandmother would turn over in her grave.
Dave/David: yes you really should do the Hokey-Pokey. That’s what it’s all about, right?
We could make it a goodwill/Baptist unity/blogger bash. I may be the only sbcIMPACT guy, but we could all meet in the lobby just before the first session and have a giant Hokey-Pokey for all to share.
Maybe Peter and Tom Ascol would hokey-pokey together. Vol and I could lock arms, and maybe David Rogers could join in, if he’s there. If we really want revival, maybe we can prevail on Ergun Caner and James White to join us. And Jerry Rankin and Morris Chapman.
We could hokey-pokey away all our troubles.
Such a dance would break out in a gun-fight…………. Yet,On second thought…..:-)
This question is driving a lot of friction currently experienced in the SBC. For years we’ve heard about preaching to “felt needs” and reaching as many as possible in any way possible, including free gas giveaways, motorcyle raffles, and the like. We can’t escape the fact that one’s theology drives one’s understanding of evangelism and corporate worship.
I agree with everything David Rogers stated, BTW.
Preaching to “felt needs”——made popular among many Southern Baptists by Harold Bryson, formerly of NOBTS.
The pastor you mention has basically turned 2 Timothy 4:1-5 on its head. In addition, he needs to learn the difference between a crowd and a church.
Kelly,
amen.
David
It is possible to address felt need, but not at the expense of the greatest need, Jesus Christ. Some preachers get so excited when they have the opprtunity to reach a large number of people, they forget the main focus. Any focus that takes away from the Gospel of Jesus Christ is junk and should be abandoned.
DW
I’m not so worried about “expository preaching” as opposed to any other kind of preaching. I have seen expository preaching done well and I have seen it become a nightmare. My only concern is that the preaching is as Paul would say “Christ and Him crucified.” In any style of preaching (topical, expository, etc.)there is no guarantee that Christ and Him crucified will preached faithfully and consistently. This is when preaching should really concern us.
As for big crowds as the measurement of success? I hope not, it seems the bigger Churches have the hardest time with “only preaching Christ and Him crucified.”
I am greatly in favor of expository preaching, especially for someone that is new to preaching and pastoral ministry.
Much of the church has failed to understand and learn what the text says, because of the shallow, relevant preaching that lacks substance and context.
Preaching expositionally, in my opinion is the best way to preach and for the congregation to learn.
John MacArthur has a message titled The Consequences of Non-Expositional Preaching.
If you haven’t listed to this from John MacArthur, The Consequences of Non-expositional Preaching (1 & 2) each message can be downloaded from this link. This is a message that I would always keep as a reminder regarding expository preaching and remaining submitted to the authority of Scripture.
http://www.gty.org/search/resources/consequence+non-expositional
The video of this message is available at http://www.gty.org/Resources/Videos from the Pulpit section of the video playlist.
Daniel Akin’s message titled, The Preacher on Preaching is good too and emphasizes expository preaching.
http://apps.sebts.edu/president/?p=1462
1 Cor. 2:1 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
The emphasis Paul places on preaching is that it be Christ and Him crucified. Much of the expositional I hear from different sources is atomistic focusing details that tend to miss the message of Christ and Him crucified.
So if we are going to do expositional that’s fine as long as its point is Christ and Him crucified.