Dr. Walter Rauschenbusch is the primary theologian of the Social Gospel. Dr. Rauschenbusch was a Baptist theologian writing around the turn of the 20th Century. He was castigated because of his opposition to World War I and after the war, he became more popular as a writing theologian. The Social Gospel began as a result of Dr. Rauschenbusch’s experience in “Hell’s Kitchen”. It was during that time that Rauschenbusch observed, the stench of violence and hardship that plagued the poor. The Social Gospel did not gain much traction because of its opposition to capitalism. The Social Gospel positioned itself in direct opposition to the evangelistic aspect of the Gospel. It taught that if the church’s focus would shift to meeting the needs of the poor then the poor would come to Jesus. Many of the mainstream churches of the time concluded that while man’s greatest need was salvation but meals and clothes were needed in order hear the Gospel. It was through the Social Gospel that Rauschenbusch would argue the mission of the church was to bring in “The Kingdom of God”. The church did this through her main mission of meeting the needs of the poor–politically, spiritually, and physically. Rauschenbusch’s theology did not gain traction in conservative congregations, but in liberal congregations is picked up momentum. Sidney Ahlstrom, author of the 1967 book, Theology in America: The Major Protestant Voices from Puritanism to Neo-Orthodoxy, argued that ‘all liberal movements were searching for some form of new relevancy in the midst of increasing change, the Social Gospel alone stood out as a religious movement that single-mindedly emphasized the “problems [of] industrialism and unregulated urban growth.”’
Before I articulate my thesis I want our readers to understand a couple of things. First, I am not against doing social ministry. I believe that every church must involve herself in reaching out to community projects and other secular ministries in order to help meet the needs of the poor. Second, I do not discount the power of meeting the needs of someone that is in need of help. It certainly opens a door that otherwise would not be opened. Third, I am by no means insinuating that the ministries mentioned below are pushing for a Social Gospel. With that said, allow me to reveal my concern that we may be heading down a road in a return to a Social Gospel movement within the SBC.
I am limiting these brief examples to two churches in North Carolina. Let me first say that I applaud these churches in what they are doing. I also want to applaud their evangelistic efforts. Elevation Church is only four years old and Pastor Steven Furtick is doing an outstanding job. According to the Elevation website they began with 121 people in 2006 and have seen over 6200 people make decisions to follow Christ. Of those 6200 they have seen 1930 baptisms which translates into approximately 500 people per yer. Also, Summit Church in Durham is doing a remarkable job with evangelism. While their baptism rates are not at the 500 yearly mark they are averaging around 100 baptisms per year. Elevation does not publish an Annual Church Profile (ACP) and Summit does. Thus, the numbers on Summit are straight from their ACP while Elevation numbers are what is posted on the website today. It does raise the question if the 6200 professions of faith are those who are members of the church. If they are church members, then does the church claim that a person joining Elevation is “making a profession of faith”? However, what I want to point our reader’s to is the projects these churches have going on.
Elevation Church recently did a “Love Week” centered around Valentine’s Day. It is during this week that volunteers from the church volunteer their time in the community through a community project. These projects usually are located around homeless shelters, clothes closets, and food distribution points. Summit’s Church in Durham has been involved in doing ministry outreach in their community through a project called Hope for RDU. Summit is doing a great job in helping to meet various societal needs in the RDU area. One particular project is Spring Saunter where they are raising money to build a Habitat for Humanity house. It should be noted that Summit has been recognized by the Durham Public School system for their involvement in their public schools. It should also be noted that Summit’s Pastor, Dr. JD Greear, was the keynote speaker at the 2010 Martin Luther King Jr. ecumenical gathering. I commend Dr. Greear on his presentation of the Gospel at such a gathering. Notice what he said;
the center of…Christianity… is a man on the cross loving people who don’t love Him, pouring His life out for people who aren’t even interested in Him.
You can read the full manuscript here
Are these two isolated examples what I am basing the question of a movement toward the Social Gospel in the SBC? While these two examples are relevant to my concerns, in and of themselves they do not reveal any kind of real concern. However, when one looks across the convention what does one see? There are many churches doing exactly what you see these two churches doing but without the evangelistic results in a personal evangelism of sharing the gospel. Many churches, who were once hot for evangelism, are now attributing their growth to nothing more than having community events and making certain the church is presented as any other non-profit organization concerned with doing good. Many secularist see this and acknowledge that one can “give back” to the community and also get a tax deduction on their gifts. Thus, they join the church with a desire to invest in some social ministries. Then as the church promotes projects they have to promote it in a way of how they will help provide food and other basic necessities.
Let’s look at a recent blog that reports Dr. Cecil Sherman’s presentation of the history of the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship and it ties this together. The nicest Moderate I have ever met, Dr. Tony Cartledge, used to be Editor of our Baptist state paper here in NC and is now Professor of Old Testament at Campbell University. In a recent blog article, about the sixteen year celebration of Cooperative Baptist Fellowship of North Carolina, Dr. Cartledege wrote;
Although some early participants wanted CBF to focus on single issues, Sherman said, its early and continuing focus has been to provide a “missions delivery system for the churches” that defined missions as more than evangelism and church starts, to support Baptist theological education, and “to teach Baptist polity to people who have forgotten it or never knew it.”
Notice that missions is defined as more than evangelism and church starts. Please understand that I agree with that statement. However, I have found out that in 20 years of ministry if one does not keep evangelism and church starts at the forefront of the people then evangelism and church starts will be an after thought of the people. What seems to be the norm across the convention is to be more receptive to things we usually would not have even tolerated. Why do I say this? We have the elected President of a state convention nominating a Pastor that does internet baptisms by proxy, has a woman on staff he references as “Pastor”, and calls himself the “Naked Preacher”. What is truly amazing is the ones that taught me these type of antics were not tolerable, who are now in leadership positions, have become mute.
One other incident took place in a conference I was in attendance. A question of how the church he served did outreach was asked of a leading pastor and his response was; ‘I do not teach my people to go door-to-door because that is outdated. I teach them to take the gospel as they go to work and in their daily lives.’ Do not get me wrong, I am not against this type of teaching. However, the pastor seemed to separate the difference in teaching to fish and fishing. How does one effectively share the Gospel if one is not taught to share the Gospel? This pastor seemed to indicate that it was taught by osmosis and his people were just heading out sharing the Gospel. On the other hand, this pastor stood and told story after story of how the church was raising money to give to world hunger, and volunteering at the local community clothes closet.
I say all of this to remind all of us, the Gospel needs to be presented at some point in time. However, if the road heading out of Baptist Zion is a road of the Social Gospel, then the SBC will never experience a Great Commission Resurgence.
Tim,
First; Thank you for this post for it is of great necessity that Southern Baptists maintain the priority of the Great Commission.
Secondly; I would like to make two personal observations:
1. I believe with all my heart that J.D. Greear has always and still does preach the biblical gospel.
2. The biblical mandate for door-to-door evangelism is not “outdated.” The problem with door-to-door evangelism is that it is no longer considered or practiced as a priority.
Tim, I believe you would affirm both those observations.
cb
Whenever I hear or read something about the social gospel, I always think of this quote.
“If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.” — Vance Havner
Brother CB,
I would hope that my article would affirm the first statement. If not, then yes I fully affirm that I believe JD Greear preaches the Gospel. As to the second statement. Yes, I could affirm that. I believe, though, that door-to-door is outdated because our leaders have moved away. I remember going to a Bailey Smith Real Evangelism and hear some of our current leaders speak. They would strongly, without compromise, tell us that while they traveled they made it a priority to be in their homes on certain nights of the week because that was the night they had church-wide visitation. I recently was at the Real Evangelism Conference and only one speaker alluded to evangelism begin door-to-door.
Brother Joe,
I like that quote. Dr. Havner had a unique way of expressing truth.
Blessings,
Tim
Brother Joe,
I forgot to tell you that Brother CB was the deacon that shaped Dr. Havner’s early ministry. :)
Blessings,
Tim
Joe,
Thanks for sharing that classic quote from one of my all time favorite preachers.
David
“I say all of this to remind all of us, the Gospel needs to be presented at some point in time.” Do you mean in a public setting, or can the church trust it’s members to share the gospel in the course of interacting with guests? If the latter, it may well be that the gospel is being shared, but there may simply not be a report on who prays to accept Jesus, rededicates their life, etc. In either case, not sharing the gospel is not sufficient grounds for making a church a “social gospel” church. For that to be the case, the church must fundamentally redefine their understanding of redemption and Savior. To my knowledge that is not the case in SBC churches. What is the case is that more churches are taking seriously the call to care for orphans and widows. If *that* is the kind of social gospel that is taking hold in our convention, then good for our convention. But as I say, that is not the social gospel of central america, for instance, where spreading the kingdome went from sharing the gospel to open calls for armed revolution.
I agree with CB when he says that the biblical mandate for door-to-door evangelism is not outdated. It is not outdated because there is no mandate for door-to-door evangelism to be found in Scripture. It doesn’t exist.
The only verse I’ve ever heard to support door-to-door evangelism is Acts 20:20, which has to be the worst example of ripping a verse out of context to be found anywhere. It is a stretch by any imagination to say that Paul “declaring” and “teaching” is the equivalent of our modern-day SB style visitation methods. Plus, in that verse Paul is speaking to the elders of the church – people that hopefully didn’t need to be lead through a FAITH presentation, since they were already church leaders.
I think CB’s line should be better stated like this: The cultural tradition of door-to-door evangelism and revival meetings that has been manifest in the southern part of the US for a relatively short period of time when considering all of church history, is now no longer quite as popular as it used to be and perhaps has even been found to not be the best focus of SB evangelism efforts.
I can agree wholeheartedly with the conclusion of the original post: The Gospel needs to be presented at some point in time. I would go farther and say that it needs to be presented clearly, boldly, quickly, and more often.
But to even insinuate that any lack in SB evangelistic fervency is due to door-to-door evangelism no longer being considered or practiced as a priority is very weak. Would you rather have a good percentage of a congregation proclaiming the gospel daily in their workplace and neighborhoods or 5 people going out once a week on visitation following up on the previous Sunday’s comment cards?
Tim,
I did not think you remembered my relationship with Dr. Havner. Your memory is still good and it makes me jealous. There is more to the story though. I first met young Vance through his Grandfather. Vance’s Grandfather served with me in the French Foreign Legion between 1889 to 2003. He served two 7 year tours. He was a Legionnaire “et honorable” :-)
Seriously Tim, I think door-to-door evangelism should still be a priority for us no matter what “leaders” may say or do. I believe it is a priority because Jesus gave us a priority for it in the Great Commission.
M,
It is in this part of your statement that reveals you know little to nothing about the biblical mandate to evangelize “…. going out once a week on visitation following up on the previous Sunday’s comment cards?”
Weakness is in thinking that concept constitutes what we mean by door-to-door evangelism as part of the priority of the Great Commission.
It is true that the Great Commission also calls “not” for a “good percentage of a congregation proclaiming the gospel daily” but rather, the Great Commission calls for “all” of a congregation to proclaim the gospel daily in their workplace and neighborhoods.
And to have only “5 people going out once a week on visitation following up on the previous Sunday’s comment cards?” may be a commentary on poor teaching of the Great Commission and poor pastoral leadership on the part of a pastor rather than the practice of door-to-door evangelism being proclaimed as not part of the Great Commission.
There is a Book in the OT that some have called affectionately \’the fifth Gospel\’ and there we find a promise from God given:
\”6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the Lord shall be thy rearward.
9 Then shalt thou call, and the Lord shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;
10 And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noon day:
11 And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.\”
I love this passage from Isaiah 58. For some in the OT, \’fasting\’ was considered a way to please the Lord and a way to show sorrow for their sins. The ritual fasting of the Hebrew people was what Protestants might call a \’work\’. But, in Isaiah, we see that God calls for a different response: compassion, loving-kindness, and caring for others as we would care for ourselves. I love this passage. May we always \’draw our souls out\’ towards those who suffer, and so fulfill the Commandments of Our Lord.
A \’work\’ is sterile. But \’Loving-kindness\’ comes to us so abundantly from God, that it overflows in our compassion for all in His Creation.
CB,
I totally agree with paragraphs 3&4.
I would honestly love to hear an argument for door-to-door evangelism from Scripture. I’ve often thought about the concept since hearing Dr. Forshee quote Acts 20:20 several times at Southeastern. I am open to being shown that I am wrong.
If by door-to-door you mean “proclaim the gospel daily in your workplace and neighborhood,” then we agree wholeheartedly and I apologize for misunderstanding. But I have never met anybody that talked about the concept of door-to-door evangelism as anything other than once a week visitation to share the latest EV method.
Again, I really do appreciate the passion – more SBs with more passion using whatever evangelism method they want would make all the difference in the world. I’m just saying that we should be careful not to confuse cultural preferences as biblical mandate. D2D really is not a priority found in the Great Commission.
“But I have never met anybody that talked about the concept of door-to-door evangelism as anything other than once a week visitation to share the latest EV method.”
Well, you have now.
And door-to-door evangelism is a priority of the GC. Frankly, it is a priority of the Christian faith as a whole. By the very foundation of the Christian faith a Christian is not permitted to live in a community and be silent about his faith.
BTW, I think Danny Forshee and Alvin Reid are fine men and worthy of their calling and vocation, but I did not study evangelism under either one of them. I did not need to. I was taught biblical evangelism by an “uneducated” pastor named Dog-ear Crump. Ole Dog-ear was doing things you, me, Alvin and Danny had never thought of to reach people with the gospel before any of us were yet twinkles in our Daddy’s eyes.
Later, I formally studied biblical evangelism under Dr. Carl Hunter, Dr. J S Bell and Dr. Dudley Pomeroy. To say I was fortunate to study under those men would be an understatement.
Finally, it has always been my opinion that the best evangelism teacher at SEBTS was always Greg Lawson. But that is another story.
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Tim,
Could you please, in one or two sentences, summarize the thesis of this post? I have some observations and commnets, but I’m really not sure how to frame them as I’m not certain what your primary point is above.
Is it that:
* You wonder if (or are concerned that) the SBC is headed towards a social gospel because of the two examples cited?
* You wonder if (or are concerned that) the SBC is headed towards a social gospel, not because of the two examples cited, but because of several other observed but uncited examples?
* You wonder if (or are concerned that) the SBC COULD move towards a social gospel if churches adopt programs like the two cited, but without any real evangelistic intent?
* You wonder if (or are concerned that) the SBC could be heading towards a social gospel because some on the GCRTF haven’t denounced the Flamingo Road guy’s candidacy for SBCPC president.
* You wonder if (or are concerned that) the SBC could be heading towards a social gospel because a conference speaker devalued door-to-door evangelism.
I still do door-to-door evangelism even though the results do not seem great by the world’s standards. In the past couple of years, my associate pastor and I have regularly done door-to-door evangelism in the area near our church. We have been able to share the gospel with a lot of people, and some have surrendered their lives to Christ in repentance and faith. Many of those new Christians were already attending churches. None of those people, however, have come to our church. Nevertheless, I will continue to do door-to-door evangelism.
I have also shared the gospel at the local mall and at Starbucks. If you think about it, there aren’t a lot of target-rich venues where we can share the gospel very easily on a regular basis. Service evangelism is a new trend, and at its best, it involves creating an opportunity to share the gospel to a person who has been served and who therefore may be more receptive to the gospel and to the gospel messenger. Unfortunately, I fear that many Christians get carried away with the service and do not get around to sharing the gospel.
Many of us, I’m afraid, have done away with visitation nights and stressed lifestyle evangelism (i.e., working through our relationships and presenting the gospel at unplanned, opportune times). Unfortunately, I sense that we typically don’t share the gospel unless we have made intentional plans to do so. It’s indeed possible to share the gospel at an unexpected time. I’ve experienced that phenomenon. It’s more likely that we will share the gospel if we have prayed in advance and gone out with the intention of sharing the gospel. In other words, the frequency of our witnessing increases as our intentionality increases.
Brother Adam,
Do you mean in a public setting, or can the church trust it’s members to share the gospel in the course of interacting with guests? I believe you are reading more into my post that is written there. No one is saying the church does not “trust it’s members”.
Brother Stuart,
Man, you really have given me various thesis. However, I believe I would sum my thesis as follows; I am asking if we are moving toward a Social Gospel strategy within the SBC because the leaders, with the microphones, no longer promote personal evangelism as much as they are promoting mass social ecumenical events that never present the gospel.
Brother Mike,
I was taught in basic evangelism at SEBTS; “you visit those you do not get and you get those you do not visit.” I also remember a group of students at SEBTS that would go out every Friday afternoon around the Seminary. Those days may be over as I have not heard of this continuing.
Blessings,
Tim
“If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.” — Vance Havner
I must remember to ask C.B. if this remark is representative of the way Christ is honored by those who follow what C.B. calls ‘the biblical gospel’.
Tim,
I think that saying you mention is true, generally speaking. I have experienced it. The Lord seems to honor our evangelistic efforts at times by bringing first-time visitors to us that we have not visited. There’s obviously no Scripture text for this saying, but I do believe that the Lord honors our faithfulness. I also think, however, that our culture is not as receptive to the gospel as it was in the 70s, and faithfulness now does not seem to result in the same numerical increase as it did in the 70s. Nevertheless, we must remain faithful in the face of a different culture and avoid any method that would violate Scriptural principles.
Oh, L’s, Dear, Beloved L’s,
There is only one gospel and that one gospel is the biblical gospel of grace brought forth by the atoning work of Christ on the cross wherein He was made to be sin that those who repent of sin and believe the gospel will become the very righteousness of God.
BTW L’s the story of the Prodigal son is a story of God’s grace. The forgiveness of the Prodigal was not dependent on his going home. The Prodigal’s redemption was based solely in the gracious, forgiving nature of his Father. Were the Father not given to forgive him, his going home would have been in vain.
Our forgiveness is the same. Our being forgiven of sin and being made the righteousness of God is never dependent upon what we do. It is always dependent upon the grace and forgiving nature of Holy God directed toward those of us who repent and believe the gospel of Jesus. And the wonder of wonders is that even our desire to repent and the ability to place faith in the Good Story of Jesus Christ is a gift from God.
Salvation is never of works before, during or after repentance and faith in the glorious gospel of our Lord. There is nothing we can boast of on our own accord. We can only boast in the cross of Christ. For that reason we can affirm the testimony of Paul as our own in saying “….I am persuaded that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until the very day of judgement without fear.”
Thus providing the only way anyone can truthfully say, “though I walk through the valley of death I will fear no evil” for my Shepherd’s rod and staff will deliver me and I will live in my Father’s House forever.
And I can shout with Paul in the very face of death; Where is your victory? O Death, Where is Your Sting? Therefore, I say, “thanks be to God, who gives me victory through my Lord Jesus Christ.”
So L’s I sing you this wonderful old song. O WHO WILL COME AND GO WITH ME? I AM BOUND FOR THE PROMISED LAND…..”
L’s I beseech you by the mercies of Christ to repent and believe the biblical gospel that we may together sit at the feet of Jesus and sing together: WORTHY IS THE LAMB.
I don’t like to use made up terms.
How about we drop “social gospel” from our vocabularies, except when discussing it as a church phenomnenon years ago? Let’s just stick with Jesus’ commands.
We can walk and chew gum at the same time.
Chrisitians can evangelize – they should. Christians should do good works – they should. Ta da! I have solved it.
The problem with the “social gospel” (you see, I had to use it there because of the historical context), is not what it claimed Christians should do. It is what it claimed Chrisitans should NOT do – share the gospel.
All Christians, in all places, in all times, should proclaim the Gospel and seek to lead people to Christ. Evangelism is not hampered by good works.
Also, I am not opposed to active strategy. Be wise as serpents. Figure out the best way to communicate and do it. No one gets a prize for doing things, “The old fashioned way.” There are reasons why we don’t have camp meetings anymore.
But being thoughtful in strategy should not be an excuse for the bizarre and trivial. Modern presentation is not in conflict with the weight and the seriousness of the Gospel. Why, look at the Havner quote itself! It is funny, clever, and probably was criticized as being to vulgar and common in its day.
Louis
Tim,
Thanks for the post. Both Dr. Greear and Steven Furtick are leading incredible ministries advancing the Kingdom of God and for that they should be commended. I was raised as early as 12 and 13 to go with our youth leaders in our neighborhoods and present the Romans Road to anyone who would listen. Our church grew exponentially in those days. But I would like to put this out for you or anyone else to comment on. Example: I’m lost, drinking a cold one, watching HBO, teenagers running crazy around the house, trying to eat dinner and you come knock on my door about 7 PM on a Tuesday night. I let you come in and sit down for a few minutes. You present FAITH or Romans Road or something else. Do you expect me to make a life changing, life altering decision in 10 minutes that effects my eternal destiny by praying a prayer and filling out a decision card? I’m not asking this being critical, we do both at our church. We knock doors and we connect doing community servant evangelism. We see many more people come from our connection events than by knocking door to door. I’ve been in ministry 16 years and I still struggle with it. Any thoughts would be welcome!
I think how and when we do door-to-door evangelism makes a difference. In our area, both spouses usually work, and both like to cocoon when they get home from work. Thus, Monday through Friday evenings are usually not a good time to go door-to-door. Saturdays at mid-day and Sunday afternoons are better. When we started, we tried the survey method, but people hate surveys these days. Now we ask for prayer requests, and we pray for those requests on the doorstep. After we pray, we can easily ascertain whether the person wants to talk some more about spiritual things. We rarely get invited inside the home. I’m surprised at how many people open their doors to talk to us. There is much fear of crime in our area. The culture now is so different than it was decades ago. I can remember the days when most women stayed at home and had the house ready for any guests that might come to visit. Those days are gone. Now both spouses usually work and are simply too tired to keep the house prepared for guests. You don’t see very many folks out on the front porch swing ready to strike up a conversation with people walking by on the sidewalk. Cable TV has added to the cocoon effect. Consider the recent stats from The Nielson Company:
“For the 2008-2009 TV season, the amount of television watched reached an all-time high as Americans spent four hours and 49 minutes a day on average in front of the TV, up four minutes from last year and up 20% from 10 years ago. The average household watched eight hours and 21 minutes a day on average, also at an all-time high”
(“Average TV Viewing for 2008-09 TV Season at All-Time High,” NielsonWire website, Nov. 10, 2009).
Interestingly, the average American still spends more time on television than on the Internet. Nielson reported last year that the average Internet user spends 68 hours a month in combined home and work usage of the Internet (“Top U.S. Web Brands and Parent Companies for September 2009,” NielsonWire website, October 14, 2009). That figure averages out to a little more than two hours per day
Hi Louis,
What should Christian people see to laughing at, in the Havner quote?
Sorry, Louis
I meant to write this:
What is it that Christian people see in the Havner quote that is funny?
Your thesis:
“With that said, allow me to reveal my concern that we may be heading down a road in a return to a Social Gospel movement within the SBC.”
Unbelievable.
There are many issues and challenges facing SBC churches today.
One of them is NOT that we are turning to a social gospel.
Look at the budgets of churches. Most are not spending even one percent of their budget in doing something that the New Testament clearly teaches: to care for the poor and the widows and the sick.
Louis said it very well – we can walk and chew gum at the same time. We must evangelize, but also we must also care for the downtrodden.
So Tim, our problem is NOT that we are doing too much social ministry and heading toward a “social gospel”. Its the opposite, sir. Evangelicals by and large have turned the task of caring for the needs of the poor at our doorstep over to the federal government, while we have created professional “pastors” and “ministers” who consume 1/2 of the church budget for their salaries and bennies.
Our SBC pastors are demanding a minimum of 1/10th of people’s income, and some pastors tell their congregations to NOT give to any other causes BUT the church, until they reach the 10% giving level. Thus, the church’s are taking all the people’s gifts, and specifically NOT using them to provide social aid, except for maybe a penny on every dollar. We have left that to the government and other non-profits – while our tithing doctrine tells us not to support these other organizations unless we first reach a giving level of 10% to our church.
In the SBC, we see FBC Dallas encouraging members to give 10% of their assets to build a $140 million campus. We see Ed Young and Fellowship Church leasing a jet for their pastor.
Those are far greater problems than J.D. Greear’s church doing too much social work.
Just suppose Christ Himself gave witness of His own solidarity with the poor? Would He have done this, in the gospels? So that we might ‘learn of Him’? What do we preach when we preach to the ones who suffer?
I would tell them the story of how He came to be one in solidarity ‘with them’, even as He hung on the Cross:
Jesus begins to make the passage from the One who is Healer
to the One who is wounded;
from the Man of compassion, to the Man in need of compassion;
from the One who cries out:
‘If anyone thirsts let him come to me to drink,’
to the Man who cries out: ‘I thirst.’
From announcing the good news to the poor, Jesus becomes the poor.
He crosses over the boundary line of humanity
which separates those whose needs are satisfied
from those who are broken and cry out in need.”
I learned something while working in the inner city. We must show kindness and compassion to a person in need, without hesitation, and do it in the Name of the Lord. It may be the only time that day that person is cared for by another human being. They won’t remember your name, but they will remember His.
Why is this so very important? If Christ laid down His Life for us out of love, I think we could give a hungry person a sandwich in His Name. We mustn’t be ashamed of Him, you know.
L’s,
Jesus did not come to be in solidarity with the poor. He came to be an atonement for sin.
L’s,
I just got home from the Alabama Eagle Forum Annual Meeting and Banquet. I wish you had been able to be with us.
Are you a member of The Eagle Forum?
Hi C.B.
About it being all right to give a sandwich to a poor person in the inner city, I forgot to tell you the ‘kicker’:
you can sit down with him while he eats it. Right next to him. And keep him company. And get to know him. Like a friend.
It’s okay.
There is a precedent, Our Lord Himself sat down and ate with people, and everyone who was ‘better than those people’ stared and didn’t ‘get it’. They couldn’t understand it. Some people still don’t understand.
But they will. In time.
You something wonderful, C.B., Our Lord didn’t come just to save us from the fires of hell, Blessed Be His Holy Name.
He also came to show us how to live, how to really, really live, in a way that no one had ever dreamed possible before. He showed us how to forgive, and how to love, and how to care. I would say He asks so little of us for all He did, only to love one another as He loved us, and bear one another’s burdens.
Well, maybe it is too hard for most of us to love people like that, but that’s where the miracle happens: He gives us the grace to do it, through the power of the Holy Spirit.
And we are changed forever.
C.B. I am not a member of The Eagle Forum. But I am VERY patriotic.
But I am a ‘Coast Guard Mom’. (very proud) And we also have in our family: a retired U.S. Navy commander, a Navy nurse, a Navy doctor, and a retired Navy captain who commanded an aircraft carrier. Not to mention my own dear father, of blessed memory, who served in the Navy and was given a military funeral. Oh gosh, I forgot to mention my own husband, retired from the Navy (what else?), who knows ‘too much’ fpr Lockheed Martin to let him go: he still works two days a week for them on Navy technical business, well past retirement age. (He loves it.) Am I a proud American, or what?
And finally, there is Jackie, my cousin, whose name is ‘on the Wall’ in Washington D.C., may he rest in the peace of Christ. So very proud.
I could never understand why any person who loved their country would want their state to secede, when our sons and daughters would give their veru lives for this country. I just don’t understand.
I am a member of Elevation Church and I participated in ‘Love Week’. Our goal is to ‘bring people who are far from God to life in Christ’. I am one of those people and through this church my life is changed. I was in a free-fall and now am being restored. Love Week gives people a chance to represent the church and provides fellowship with members of the Body. ‘Faith without works is dead’. It is out of gratitude for what was done for us on the Cross that we perform good deeds, positively represent Christianity, and are charitible to our fellow man and community. I have joined a community group, a small, men’s bible study/prayer group since Love Week. It helped me to tear down walls of isolation and provided a way to be more involved in church activity, as opposed to secular, social ‘hanging out’. Jesus fed the hungry. Jesus gave hope. Are we not called to live our lives based on His example?
L’s,
Jesus came to die for our sins, not to feed the hungry and clothe the poor and just sit down and listen to a homeless person. Now, please, dont misunderstand what I’m saying here. Those things are good things…feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, and listening to someone who’s hurting and needs someone to listen to them. I have done all of these things and more in my Christian life. My Church does these things all the time. But, Jesus came to this Earth for one, sole purpose….to die in our place….to take our punishment for our sins upon His own body…and all who will repent of their sins and turn to God with all of their heart, and who put their faith in Jesus and His death on the cross; will be saved, forgiven, redeemed, on their way to Heaven.
Is there a place for doing things to help those in need? Most certainly, and I think Tim would agree with that. In fact, it’s conservative, evangelical Christians and Churches that do more “social Gospel” type work, than the liberal ones that dwell on it. Conservative, evangelical Churches do more helping the needy type of ministries than the liberal Churches who just talk about it all the time.
David
Let me just say this. I think Tim was trying to say here that evangelism should still be what drives everything that we do…whether feeding the hungry, visiting the prisons, or building someone a house that doesnt have one. Our main goal should be to win those people to the Lord, not just to help out the needy.
Also, let me just say that I do door to door evangelism. I have always done door to door evangelism. Sometimes people are not interested, and they’re too busy watching TV and washing dishes, etc. But, other people out there are open. They are very willing to talk, and in fact, are glad that someone cared enough to come and see them and talk to them about spiritual things. But, I quit having weekly visitation myself. I was having 2 or 3 people show up, and most of the time no one would show up. My Church was trained in FAITH…I mean, a lot of them were trained in it. But still, they wont show up for weekly visitation.
So, we have Wild Game Suppers, Awana, VBS, Revival meetings, Easter and Christmas programs, Easter egg hunts for children, Trunk or Treat at Halloween, Youth Rally’s, Youth Camps, etc. We take baby blankets to the hospitals, and our Youth are going out today to hand out bags with a tract and info about our Church to every house in our town. All of these things put us in touch with lost people, and open doors for us to be able to share the Gospel. I’ve seen more results from doing this things to reach lost people, than door to door, weekly visitation.
Also, as a Pastor, and my Student Minister as well, we try to attend high school ball games, little league games, school functions, community events, etc. We try to be as visible as possible in our community. Of course, I live in a small town….which is a little different than Bapt. Theologues, and others that live in cities and suburbs.
But, all of these things are done with one thing in mind….to win lost people to Jesus. Now, we also are trying to be a friend, and help those in need, and care about people…yes. But, our main goal is to win the lost to Jesus; because that will meet the greatest need they have.
But, if all of these Churches and Christian leaders out there are doing is to feed the hungry, and give shelter to the homeless; then they’re doing what Tim Rogers and Vance Havner said. They’re feeding a guy today, and he’ll suffer in Hell forever tomorrow. What good is that?
DAvid
L’s,
Vance Havner was a great preacher of the Gospel, who lived not too long ago in our past. He was used of God to touch the hearts and lives of thousands of people. Many, many people got saved thru his work.
What’s so funny about what Vance Havner said is that some Churches(liberal ones who dont preach the Gospel) would have just given this ole boy, the prodigal, some food so that he could’ve just kept living in the pig swaller. That young man needed salvation, the forgiveness of the Father; he didnt need anyone patting him on the back and handing him a sandwich and telling him to hang in there and have hope. That young man needed to get out of the pig pen. But, some liberal Churches and leaders would’ve just been for trying to give him some food, as if that would have helped him a whole lot.
Vance Havner is known for putting truth into phrases and sayings that just make you chuckle. He was a great man, and God used him in a great way.
May we all be used of God in just half the way that Vance Havner was.
David
Oh, BTW, I have baptised 2 young people here lately, and I have one more to baptise, who’ve been a result of Awana and our childrens ministries. Also, I have 2 younger children, who are asking questions and say that they want to be saved….I’ve talked to one of them, and the other one is saying that he wants to talk to me sometime, but they’re not quite ready…just a little bit young(5yrs old; both of them)…but they’re very, very close to getting saved….due to Awana and all of our children’s ministries. Also, I baptised a young man, in his late 20′s a few Sunday’s ago; and I really think that our childrens ministries was instrumental in this fella wanting to get right with the Lord and get baptised. His daughter is very involved in our Church.
So, we’re seeing God use these type of things to reach people.
Now, on the other hand, my Church has bought groceries, paid electric bills, water bills, bought clothes, etc for more people in this area than you and I and every one else in here could keep up with. To my knowledge, not a single one of those people that we’ve helped in this way have gotten saved. I honestly cannot think of even one. I’ve been sitting here thinking for a while before posting this comment. I’ve racked my brain thinking, and I cannot think of even one that’s gotten saved due to our benevolent ministries.
David
Sometimes, David, the witness of the kindness of a Christian person towards someone who is suffering is able to point people towards the Lord. I think of Lottie Moon. She lived her life ‘in imitation of Christ’. You know how we know this?
She loved the Chinese people so much that she gave them her food and died of starvation. Did she do this for her own merit? No. She LOVED them, with the power of the unearthly abundant love of Christ.
And she denied herself, following His commandment to love one another ‘as I have loved you’, and in doing so, gave her life so that they might live. David, it is because there were once such Christians as Lottie Moon, we can know from their witness, the power of Christ’s love.
Sometimes when you go door to door, tell people about Lottie Moon’s witness. We know from 1 Corinthians, chapter 13, that of faith, hope, and love, which IS the greater force in the Kingdom of the Lord. I think the witness of the love of Christ turns people’s faces towards Him on the Cross. And by the power of the Holy Spirit, it is then, that these people are given the grace to recognize Him who has saved them.
Lottie Moon couldn’t stand behind a pulpit. So she lived and died for love of Him instead, and the strength of her witness speaks louder than any sermon.
To all,
I am sorry it has been some time since I could return. I have had ministry needs and have just returned to a computer. Because I have been gone I will only address those that have addressed me in their introduction line.
Brother Mike (BT)
I would agree that our culture is not as receptive to the door type of visits that we did in the 70′s. However, I am in the 19th fastest growing county in the nation and even those that are new to the area open the doors and interact with me. I just returned from a visit this past Thursday with a person that moved here from Penn. You are correct that our need it so maintain our message and avoid any method that would violate Scriptural principles.
Brother Louis,
I agree that we should be thoughtful in our strategies. We should make certain that a modern presentation of the Gospel is not tied up with only the “good things” that Christians do. It appears that is where many are heading.
Brother Michael,
You ask; “Do you expect me to make a life changing, life altering decision in 10 minutes that effects my eternal destiny by praying a prayer and filling out a decision card?” Matthew 9:9 tells of a time that Jesus did that and Matthew followed him. (I am not sure they had decision cards as Brother Bobby Welch had not put together FAITH) :) Also in Matthew 19:21 Jesus gave the same invitation and the Rich Young Ruler walked away. Should he had accepted the invitation it would have been instantaneous after about 10 minutes of conversation. Brother Michael, I know you and I know that you are not doing what I have expressed as my concern. At no place in my article have I stated that we did not need to do social ministries.
Brother Tom R,
I am sorry that you were found out while trying to be anonymous while trashing your pastor and church leaders. However, that has left some huge hurt in you and I pray that God will heal that in your life. However, the article has never said we had problem wit the churches I mentioned doing too much social gospel ministry. This article was very explicit that I commended these churches on their evangelism. Also, no one has said Brother JD is doing too much social work.
Brother Doug,
It is good to hear how God is working in your life. Are you saying that you are one that was changed as a result of Love Week? If so, I am excited for you walk and the social outreach that produced a chang in your life. However, my article remains the same. I have not, in any place put down Elevation and their work in Love Week. One other thing I would like to call your attention to. You said; “Jesus fed the hungry. Jesus gave hope. Are we not called to live our lives based on His example?” No we are not called to live our lives based on his example. Yes, Jesus set a great example. But, according to the Scriptures, Galatians 2:20 explains that we do not live the Christian life it is Christ that lives it through us.
Brother David W,
“I think Tim was trying to say here that evangelism should still be what drives everything that we do…whether feeding the hungry, visiting the prisons, or building someone a house that doesn’t have one. Our main goal should be to win those people to the Lord, not just to help out the needy.” That is exactly what I am saying.
Blessings,
Tim
L’s, sorry I did not get back to this sooner to explain the humor in the Havner quote. David Whorley did it for me, however.
I probably would not have explained it, anyway. You know what they say about having to explain a joke.
L’s, I don’t disagree one bit with helping the poor. So, you and I are in complete agreement on that.
I have known some people, however, who really don’t believe that people are lost and need salvation. They identify themselves as Christians because of the tradition they were raised it etc., but they do not believe that humans are lost in their sin without the forgiveness of Christ which is appropriated only by grace through faith in Christ. Salvation is a miraculous event that occurs in people’s lives, and it often has the accompanying real world changes that are displayed in the story of the prodigal son.
People who say they are Christian, but no longer believe in the need for salvation actually withhold from suffering people the thing they need the most. They are compassionate toward their physical needs, but ignorant and unbelieving of their spiritual needs.
These are the people Havner is describing. They have missed the true miracle that occurred in the prodigal’s life, and since they don’t believe in it, they cannot testify of that miracle to others.
I do not count you among those people.
Maybe you have just never met anyone like that. I have. That’s why Havner is so funny to me.
Louis
L’s,
I hope and pray you read Vol’s comments to you here in #32-35. He has told you the truth about various things of biblical faith. I alos hope you read my comment to you in #19.
L’s, I believe you would be amazed at how Vol and Tim live out their faith in their community. They both love Jesus and they love people. Either one of them could be doing other things and making fortunes, but they both seek to serve the Lord Jesus by serving other people in ways they don’t even realize themselves because it has become ingrained in their DNA to the point they don’t even think about it as they do it.
They don’t put much of it on posts, because they are not boastful and they also know many would not believe them if they did tell things they do for people in the name of Jesus.
But, be assured, both of these guys are tough as nails about the biblical gospel. They do not compromise on the truth of the Scripture or Christian theology one bit. They are unmovable.
L’s you were not around when we all first started blogging. Back then David (Vol), Tim, Wes, Robin and several other guys were on an opposite side from me about some political and philosophical issues within the SBC.
I fought with this bunch of guys like they were Vandals and Huns. I said mean low-down things to them because we were at war with one another. I even put other people up to saying mean low-down things to them. We fought all the way from Greensboro to San Antonio like dogs. I have fought with Tim Rogers and Bart Barber hard. Vol got into it with me and a young friend of mine in Jackson, TN and we were really rough on him. L’s I could tell you a hundred stories going all the way back to late 2005, but I think you get the picture.
Here is the point. All the time we were battling it out over SBC stuff, I always noticed that all these guys were solid in their faith. They were sound in their theology and their understanding of God’s Word. And Tim, Tim G, Bart, Vol, Wes, Robin and a host of others were always “Christ like” to me when we were together even though they knew I was being mean as a snake. Tim Rogers especially knew because he and I have been knowing each other for a long time. He knew why I was “off the reservation.” He understood and he was longsuffering with me.
L’s these guys are the real deal. They do all the things you are talking about and more. They are constantly out there with a “cup of cold water” in one hand and the “gospel” in the other. These guys will help anyone they can and tell the Story of Jesus to all they can. But they will not compromise the gospel for any reason. They are the real deal L’s and they know Jesus.
Hi LOUIS,
Thank you for explaining about the quote. I know. I have met people who helped others simply for personal credit, with no real concern for the people at all, but only to make a public impression and a name for themselves in the community.
Well, they have their earthly reward.
I know that they aren’t able to understand yet.
We are called to pray for them, that someday they will come to understand about the love of Christ, which comes to us so abundantly that it overflows within us and spills outward towards our neighbor.
And C.B., I have no doubt that these people here that you mention love Our Lord. I just want them to know that \’works\’ is not the same as \’bearing one another’s burdens\’.
\”Works\” as defined by Protestants (and Catholics) is void of meaning. Caring for one another, in the Name of Christ, is done out of gratefulness, in service to Our Lord.
I just hope that people realize that the expression of caring for one another does not in anyway diminish the Baptist believe in the \’solas\’.
If anything at all, the expressions of loving-kindness in His Name stand in witness of our deep faith in Our Lord. My Down Syndrome son, who cannot speak, carries toys to the stretcher and wheel-chair bound residents in his group home and gently places them gently in their hands. He feels compassion for those who are less fortunate than he is, and he reaches out to help them. He knows to do this, by some gift of the Holy Spirit. We know that God is the Source of all love, and even my son stands silent witness to God’s abundant and over-flowing love.
The article is correct in that we should always put Evangelism as the reason for our community outreach ministry. That should be the reason for our works in the community. There seemed to be some who thought that we can’t do both, evangelize and serve others. Jesus did come to save the lost and the reason He did it was because He loved the lost even before they loved him. And he also spent time teaching the disciples how to be servant leaders so that we might learn from the Gospels how to live our Spirit filled lives serving and reaching out to others. While some of us are gifted for evangelism, some for serving, and some for teaching we must all spend time telling others about Christ and serving others so that they may experience the love of Christ.
Just finished the NAMB Ministry Evangelism Conference last weekend at FBC Leesburg. The conference taught many ways of serving our communities but never strayed from the emphasis on evangelism. I hope we are moving toward “Ministry Evangelism” and not Social Gospel.
I saw one comment where a brother hadn’t saw anyone saved by the benevolent work of his church. That is so sad and it makes me wonder are those doing the benevolent work not trained in evangelism or is it just serving those already saved which is also important. I see many come to know Christ through our community missions and have seen many led to Christ at the Christian Care Center at FBC Leesburg. We require our workers serving in ministries to complete evangelism training before working directly with people.
The lost don’t trust us as Christians today until they feel the love of Jesus Christ through our actions. I still knock on doors and visit the neighbors and sometimes see some of those accept Christ. But I also tell others about Christ while helping to meet their needs. We need to have all our members serving Jesus in some fashion as ministers of the Gospel and while their gifts and abilities vary the parts of the body of the Church will work together to to bring many to Jesus Christ.
Christiane,
You just dont get it. I’ve known this for a long time, and I’ve seen comments made by you that show that you dont know anything about grace. And, Christiane, when I say “grace” I’m talking about the Biblical meaning; not being nice and kind and respectful while talking to someone; not saying a prayer of thanks before a meal; I’m talking about grace. You attend a Church that teaches a works salvation, and they have done so for many, many years. Christiane, I just have to tell you that being kind will not get a person into Heaven. Showing kindness the weak and sick of our world will not get anyone into Heaven. Only by grace thru faith will we get to Heaven. Ephesians 2:8-10 and Acts 20:20-21
Also, you’re dead wrong about Vance Havner. Why in the world would you say that he did what he did for “personal credit?” Why would you suggest that anyone who is reaching out to people to lead them to salvation are doing so to make a “name for themselves in the community?” Christiane, as nicely as I can say this, are you even reading what Louis and I wrote? what CB wrote? Your answers come back on these comments as if you’re not even reading what was written.
Also, Christiane, something I’ve noticed about you and Debbie K. and a few others. I believe that yall are just trying to be antagonistic towards anyone of us, who are considered by yall to be “fundamentalists extremists.” I believe that CB, Tim, Wes, or I could say that cows eat grass, and horses drink water, and you and Debbie would disagree with us. Why do you feel the need to do this? Why do you feel the need to argue with us about every little thing?
Also, are yall coming in here because Wade shut down comments over at his place?
David
SonBilly,
Our Church witnesses to people, who are people in need all the time. They usually are not interested in God. They just want God’s people to give them food, or pay their light bills; so that they can buy more beer and lottery tickets with their money. You may not like me saying that, but it’s the truth.
One lady we helped, who has a small child, was seen buying cigs and lottery tickets shortly after we payed her electric bill. We have helped this woman many times in the past. We wont help her anymore. We have presented the Gospel to her. She still does not come to Church, and she’d probably call us next week if she felt that we’d pay her light bill.
A Pastor friend of mine, who’s Church is near, requires people to come to church, to a service, in order for them to hear about the needs they have. That usually makes them not want to come.
Son, I have a thousand stories I could tell you about a lot of the poor people that we’ve helped in the past….and they used and played us for help. Like the old boy, who took the groceries that we bought him, and he went door to door in the trailer park selling to people for half price so he could buy more drugs.
Sonbilly, I’m not doubting that some needy people have come to Jesus thru yall’s helping. I truly hope they have. Do you ever see them in Church? Did they ever follow thru with baptism? Cause I’ve had people talk a lot about God, while they’re wanting you to help them; but as soon as the light bill is paid, then they’re drinking beer and throwing their money away on lottery tickets and such again…and you never see them in Church.
Anyway, yes, we try to help people in our Church much, much more; and do extra…because they’re part of our family. The Bible tells us to take care of our fellow Christians in our Church family.
Anyway, I’m still for helping needy people, as we’re able to do. But, I havent seen any of them get saved, get baptised, and start coming to Church. I hope you have.
David
Vol,
The truth about L’s is not that she is loving and kind with a heart of gold. She is lost and seems to be hardhearted toward people who preach the gospel as it really is. She tries to cover her hard heart with “sweet” words and quotes from “religious” writings. But I have read most of her comments for close to two years now. Her heart is hard and she is of her father the Devil as all lost people are.
Ergun Caner recently apologized to Jerry Rankin publicly for calling him a liar. Later he made a public statement of repentance for sin in his life. Debbie and L’s know this along with others like this fellow who calls himself Thy Peace and spews venom toward conservative Christians constantly. He also feeds Debbie’s ego and she allows him to trash people at her place at will. Then she thanks him for his great “insights.” L’s joins in with the following brand of sick poison over at Debbie’s little funhouse:
L’s compares Ergun to Fred Phelps:
“….I think people like Ergun Caner hope somehow to gain ‘popularity’ and ‘attention’ from stirring up the ill-will that is out there longing to find a target to focus on. I look at Caner as a sort of ‘Fred Phelps’ who has made a career out of hate-mongering and spreading mis-information about minorities.
Unfortunately, there are many who respond to the Caners and the Phelpses of this world. The targets may vary, but the hatred and judgmentalism is always the same. So I believe that Ergun Caner lies about the Islamic faith for the purpose of misrepresenting them to anyone who will listen. And, oh, how people listen. What is sad about this is that Caner is naturally talented as a speaker and could have been a wonderful leader in the Church. But he could resist the lesser angels of his nature and chose the path of destruction. He must have a very low self-esteem.”
After she does this kind of thing she comes over here along with Debbie and talks about love and kindness and how she hopes we all catch on.
Then I tell her she is of her father the Devil and folks get indignant about it.
But no matter what she says or does I still pray she gets saved. Vol, you have been kind to L’s and shared the gospel with her. That is a good thing. Maybe one day she will repent and believe the gospel. I pray so. But one thing is for sure. If and when she does die and go to hell, she can’t say she was never told the truth of the gospel.
Vol,
If you read L’s comment about Ergun above, remember all of this was said after the guy publicly repented of sin.
So this is what I wonder Vol; Where is all of that grace, love and forgiveness L’s and Debbie talk about all the time? After Ergun repented publicly, Debbie has posted two, three or maybe four more posts degrading him. Debbie is so obsessed with it that the first 24 comments on her last post were from her. Then L’s and Thy Peace come along with their vile garbage. That’s the true L’s, Vol.
Hi DAVID,
“Why in the world would you say that he did what he did for “personal credit?”
Excuse me? I am unable to understand your question.
David, if you feel that I have been antagonistic or disrespectful towards anyone here, then I must not blog here. This is your blog, and I will respect your wishes. Remain in the peace of the Lord always.
Caritas Christi,
L’s
Bro. Tim,
Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that I disagreed with you in any way on the social gospel issue. I was more interested in the evangelism part of it and I probably got a little off topic. I understand your point in the two examples you provided. I’m still just trying to figure out what works best and most effectively.
Hi C.B.
I did post this on Debbie’s site also, to do with ANYONE who used a position of authority to spread mis-informatin about an innocent minority in their country:
“Many people took a stand against the persecution of innocent people by those who would used ‘misinformation propaganda’ against a minority group called the Jews in Nazi Germany. Their stand was moral. And it was Christian. There is a precedent for standing up against the abuse of minority groups. And, I can tell you this, in Hitler’s Germany, the ones who stood up paid a price. But they did it anyway. It had much to do with being honorable, but I think it had much, much more to do with being Christian.
Debbie has witnessed of Christ to Mohammad Khan, and he will not forget the goodness of a Christian woman.”
I stand by what I write. No apologies. Ergun Caner’s performance is on record for all to see. I don’t comment on his performance. No one has to. They can see it for themselves.
I’m proud of Debbie’s moral courage and her Christian witness to people of another faith in standing up for the truth.
And I stand by what I write also L’s, if I have told the truth. If I have not told the truth I must repent, standdown and make amends if possible.
But in your case I have always told the truth. Your are a lost, child of the Devil and a heardhearted and vicious woman who is far less than truthful about many things.
C.B.,
Are you all right?
I am fine as the rain L’s.
And I am right about you.
Why is it that you refuse to extend the same grace to Ergun Caner you extend to others? He made a public statement of repentance. Is it because he is a conservative Christian?
For DAVID,
Here is a statement about ‘grace’ accepted by my Church and also the Lutheran churches. Is this similar at all to your view of ‘grace’?
“”By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping us and calling us to good works.”
This ‘joint-declaration’ states only the points ‘of agreement’.
CB:
You said to Christiane:
“But in your case I have always told the truth. Your are a lost, child of the Devil and a heardhearted and vicious woman who is far less than truthful about many things.”
Remind me again CB–you are a pastor? and you speak to even 1 human being in the way you did above.
God did not call you to judge even 1 person’s soul like you have done.
You really need to quit commenting until you can do better than this.
Tom Parker,
I have always spoken the truth relating to you also.
You are a liberal.
Tom Parker, read L’s comments in this comment thread. In the comment thread of the last post on this blog. And then read the comment threads on the last four posts at Debbie Kaufman’s Little Shop of Horrors. Then come back here and tell me L’s is not “a lost, child of the Devil and a heardhearted and vicious woman who is far less than truthful about many things.”
Hi TOM,
I’m worried for him, Tom. I think maybe he is not feeling well.
L’s,
Why will you not answer these questions?
“Why is it that you refuse to extend the same grace to Ergun Caner you extend to others? He made a public statement of repentance. Is it because he is a conservative Christian?”
C.B.
Do you know where the statement can be found? Apparently he removed a statement from his site. Did he apologize to the Islamic community for his mis-information about them? Did he apologize to the students at Liberty who are under his authority? I just didn’t see an apology, in all honesty.
C.B. I am very concerned for you. If I am upsetting you to such extremes, it would be better not for us to communicate. Very worried. :(
Brother’s CB, Tom, and Sister L’s,
This comment thread has nothing to do with Dr. Caner. At no place has he been mentioned in the article. I will allow the current comments to stand. If you continue I will remove all future comments. Please stay with the subject matter. We give some leeway but you guys are over the line.
Blessings,
Tim
Hi TIM,
Thank you for the reminder. You are right. I will stop at once.
L’s
Thanks for calling me ‘sister’. God Bless You, Tim.
Tim,
If L’s is your sister, you should have run away from home when you were little like I did.
Good night, C.B.
go get some good rest now. Tomorrow is Sunday. Be peaceful. All will be well in Christ.
Love, L’s
“Your are a lost, child of the Devil and a heardhearted and vicious woman who is far less than truthful about many things.”
I think you’re better than the comment above, C.B. You need to take a step back and reassess how you can more effectively be the “presence of Christ” when conversing with L’s.
Big Daddy,
You are well trained in the methods of research. Do it. Then come back here and tell me how many steps back I should take.
I was going to suggest a specific number of steps in reply, perhaps 3 as that is the number of games the Baylor Bears and Baylor Lady Bears have won in this NCAA tournament and 3 is the number of games needed to win the NCAA Championship. 3 is also the number of hours it will take me to reach my destination of Houston once again tomorrow.
While 3 might be a good number, I would like to simply point out my anti-spam word: SELF-CONTROL.
Don’t know what your anti-spam word was but my anti-spam word is probably a bit more applicable to you and your situation in this particular instance…
Brother Doug,
It is good to hear how God is working in your life. Are you saying that you are one that was changed as a result of Love Week? If so, I am excited for you walk and the social outreach that produced a chang in your life. However, my article remains the same. I have not, in any place put down Elevation and their work in Love Week. One other thing I would like to call your attention to. You said; “Jesus fed the hungry. Jesus gave hope. Are we not called to live our lives based on His example?” No we are not called to live our lives based on his example. Yes, Jesus set a great example. But, according to the Scriptures, Galatians 2:20 explains that we do not live the Christian life it is Christ that lives it through us.
I wasn’t saying that I ‘was changed as a result of Love Week’. I was changed, and am still changing, as a result of accepting Jesus as my Lord and Savior. We are called to love one another. It isn’t complicated. If someone claims to be a Christian, yet doesn’t live in a way that reflects the love of Jesus and pleases God, he is called a ‘hypocrite’. If he goes out of his way to help/serve others, he is called ‘unacceptant of Grace and trying to earn salvation’. I don’t claim to be a theologian. I attend the church God called me to and pray for the will, strength, and discipline to live by the Lord’s Word. I have much respect for your thoughts and words. Thank you and may God bless you all.
Doug,
No one is saying that helping others is trying to earn salvation; unless that’s what you’re doing it for…which is what some Churches teach. And, no one is saying that serving others makes you unacceptant of grace; unless, again, someone is serving others with the thought that that makes them a good person, who deserves to go to Heaven.
What Tim and others are saying in here is that all of those things need to be done with winning the lost at the heart of it. If all we’re doing, and some seem to be going that way, is giving people that are hungry sandwiches; then they’re missing the boat. If some thing that the main thing is to build someone a house, then they’re missing what a Christians mission is supposed to be.
Does that make it clear? Our goal should be to win people to Jesus. Evangelism. Real missions has soul winning at it’s heart.
David
Ah… gotcha! Thanks for clearing it up for me. I totally agree.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkdniYsUrM8
Hi DAVID WORLEY,
You wrote this:
“What Tim and others are saying in here is that all of those things need to be done with winning the lost at the heart of it. If all we’re doing, and some seem to be going that way, is giving people that are hungry sandwiches; then they’re missing the boat. If some thing that the main thing is to build someone a house, then they’re missing what a Christians mission is supposed to be.”
May I offer a different perspective without offending you?
Providing food and shelter for some IS considered Christ’s mission among those who serve in the midst of innocents (severely mentally and physically handicapped). It is felt that in caring for them, the mentally-challenged come to know of Christ by way of the loving-kindness that we give to them. And it is felt, that in giving care to the ones who cannot defend themselves in this world, we are not wasting our efforts in living out our lives in obedience to His Great Commandment. When we live in obedience to the Great Commandment, we will share Christ with others with ALL of our strength, and mind, and heart, and soul, and time, and resources.
People who tell lies about others, show contempt for people who are different, and use vitriol against those that do not agree with them run the risk of being considered ‘hypocrites’ when they go out to fulfill the Great Commission.
I think that ‘walking the walk’ in obedience to the Great Commandment is a pre-requisite for ‘talking the talk’ (sharing the Gospel with all nations). Some Christians need to stop the vitriol, the ‘mis-information’ about minorities, the bullying, the put-downs, and the ‘humor at the expense of the poor’ AND the mocking of the handicapped who appeal to us for help, because when these Christians speak ‘of Christ’ to non-believers, all that is heard is the hate and contempt in their voices. That is more than sad.
Christianne,
You said; “When we live in obedience to the Great Commandment, we will share Christ with others with ALL of our strength, and mind, and heart, and soul, and time, and resources.” But not our mouths?
A simple research project for you will do wonders in your seeing the fallacy of that statement. Go through the Gospels and give me Scripture and verse of the times that people recognized who Jesus was without Him telling them who He was.
Blessings,
Tim
Hi TIM,
When the ones who speak of Christ do not show forth His Presence in their lives, people will look at them and question their commitment to their own words. I think it has to do with integrity. Without the walk, the talk rings hollow. Most all of us know that, but some have forgotten it. This week, especially, I am called to remember, and to remember in repentence, Tim. I share some of the scriptures we read this week:
Isaiah 58:9-14
9Then you shall call, and the Lord will answer;
you shall cry for help, and he will say, Here I am.
If you remove the yoke from among you,
the pointing of the finger, the speaking of evil,
10if you offer your food to the hungry
and satisfy the needs of the afflicted,
then your light shall rise in the darkness
and your gloom be like the noonday.
11The Lord will guide you continually,
and satisfy your needs in parched places,
and make your bones strong;
and you shall be like a watered garden,
like a spring of water,
whose waters never fail.
12Your ancient ruins shall be rebuilt;
you shall raise up the foundations of many generations;
you shall be called the repairer of the breach,
the restorer of streets to live in.”
For TIM,
a follower of the Good Shepherd, who recognizes His Lord and knows His Voice when he the Lord calls to him:
“Luke 24:30-31, 33, 35 – “When he was at table with them, he took bread,
blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to them.
Then their eyes were opened, and they recognized him; and he vanished from their sight…
That same hour they got up and returned to Jerusalem;
and they found the eleven and their companions gathered together…
Then they told what had happened on the road,
and how he had been made known to them in the breaking of the bread.”
Matthew 16:13-999
13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”
Tim,
Thanks for your reply. I’m afraid the comment stream here has gone so far off track from your OP, that my comments may be of little value. But nonetheless…
You clarified that you wonder if SBs are heading towards a social gospel because, “the leaders, with the microphones, no longer promote personal evangelism as much as they are promoting mass social ecumenical events that never present the gospel.”
A couple of observations. You could have just said that up front in the OP much more perspicuously. You qualified the two examples that you cited up front as not “in and of themselves” pointing to an influence of the social gospel. I think you could go a step further and say that they “do not at all” point to an influence of the social gospel in the SBC. The Social Gospel was/is a very real, very identifiable, very definable movement which bore little resemblence to servant-evangelism, needs-based evangelism, ministry-based-evangelism, etc. as we find it in the examples you cited and elsewhere across the SBC.
Further, I think you would do a great service to all of your readers if you would define what a “mass social ecumenical event” is and give some examples of mass social ecumenical events as reference points. (Or are the two original examples given as examples of “mass social ecumenical events”? If so, why qualify with “they do not in and of themselves…etc.” They’re either mass social ecumenical events or legitimate needs-based evangelism, but not likely both.)
Then, after defining and giving examples of mass social ecumenical movements, you could give more examples of “leaders with microphones” promoting those instead of legitimate evagnelism, and it would really bolster your argument.
As it stands brother, I think you’ve drawn a conclusion based upon several different factors that concern you. But I’d like to encourage you with the thought that those factors don’t necessarily go together nor do they cumulatively point to an embrace of the Social Gospel in the SBC.
I know I am late to this game and that this response to TimR way, way back in comment #16…
At Midwestern, they still have what they describe as METs (Midwestern Evangelism Teams). The professor in charge of these teams called me about a year and a half ago asking if we would like for the students in his evangelism class and the METs to come to our church field and help with door-to-door evangelism. I quickly returned his call with an emphatic YES! The sad part of the story is that he was so grateful that I had replied and was enthusiastic about them being involved in adding to our evangelism ministry. I asked him why he seemed so relieved. His response…he told me that he had place numerous calls to ‘Baptist’ (I say Baptist because some are definitively SBC, while others are loosely, very loosely, affiliated with the SBC) churches in our area and that most would not return his call or were not interested in attempting to share the Gospel and introduce their church to their community in this way. I was shocked!
Since that first call, we have had the METs work with us on two other occasions and have established our own NETs (Neighborhood Evangelism Teams). We have seen two repent of sin and believe in Jesus as their Savior and Lord…and while I was out with one other team “seeking those whom I would not find,” I got a call from our church office about another couple interested in speaking with me about church membership–”finding those whom we had not sought.”
Christianne,
You have given me one reference and that was after his resurrection. The reference to Peter’s confession is after Jesus has told Peter and the rest of the disciples who he was.
One more time. Give me reference and verse of the times Jesus was recognized as to who He was without Him telling the person who He was.
I will give you a hint. It was only the Prophet and Prophetess at his birth and the demon possessed. My point, is that Jesus, while he did good works, had to tell people who He was. His life was a life of good and He had to tell people who He was. Yours and my life, at best, is filthy rags. At some point in time we must verbally tell people the Gospel.
Brother Scott,
Thanks for that information. I certainly wish something like that was available around me.
Blessings,
Tim
Hi TIM,
From the Letter of Paul, 1 Thessalonians Chapter 1, we learn that the Gospel goes forth in the power of the Holy Spirit, and that the Gospel was taught by men who lived in imitation of the Apostles and of Lord Christ, in such a way that the example of their lives also taught of Christ.
BTW, the concept of Christian people as \’dirty rags\’ is not in my beliefs. We consider people of faith to be temples of the Holy Spirit.
If we sin, it is through the Holy Spirit that our consciences are convicted, and through the Spirit that our faces are turned once more towards Lord Christ in repentence, and we seek His forgiveness. Perhaps you meant it was people’s deeds or works were called \’dirty rags\’? I think you may have, but I am not certain.
The indwelling Holy Spirit is able to melt the frozen places in our hearts and lead us into a spirit of repentance. Through the Spirit, we may witness of Christ IF we are living ‘in imitation of Him\’ and obeying His Commandments to love one another.
In the absence of the Spirit within, our words to others about Christ would have no power of their own to effect conversion. We may speak of Lord Christ and His Saving Grace, but the power to bring men to Christ is the power of the Holy Spirit, not of any believer, least we should boast.
We may point to Lord Christ. The Holy Spirit does the rest.
5 for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction ;
just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.
6 You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit,
7 so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia.
8 For the word of the Lord has sounded forth from you, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone forth, so that we have no need to say anything.
9 For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.
Christianne,
Not once have you pointed to a scripture that I have asked you about. the scripture you are giving me concerns the example of other believers.
Once again, where in the NT, of course we are speaking about the Gospels, did Jesus meet someone and not tell the person who He was? The only place you will find it is with demon-possessed people. Then they witnessed to all around that Jesus was God. Everyone that was not demon possessed Jesus told them the Gospel.
Blessings,
Tim
Hi TIM,
I kept trying to understand what you were meaning, and I finally went back to look at the original comment and realized something:
\”Christianne,
You said; “When we live in obedience to the Great Commandment, we will share Christ with others with ALL of our strength, and mind, and heart, and soul, and time, and resources.” But not our mouths?
A simple research project for you will do wonders in your seeing the fallacy of that statement. ”
TIM, The words ‘But not our mouths’ was not a part of MY statement, hence the confusion perhaps. I have a Down Syndrome son who does not have the gift of speech so trust me, I understand that God\’s gift of speech is not to be taken for granted. When I wrote to serve God \’with our whole minds\’, I recalled the portion of St. Luke\’s Gospel where Our Lord \’opened the minds\’ of His Disciples and taught them from the Scriptures, so that they could understand all of the meanings of the O.T. Scriptures that pertained to Him, before they set forth on His Command. A prayer in my faith: ‘Christ be in my mind, Christ be on my lips, Christ be in my heart.’
(anti-spam word is ‘patience’) :)
Christianne,
Thank you for expressing that my communication skills are that of one with Downs. I count it an honor to be in such company of such special people.
Now, allow me to get back to our original topic. I place the “But not our mouths”? statement on the end of your statement. You will also notice that I placed your original statement in italics and then placed my question on the end. I then explained to you the simple research project in order for you to see a fallacy. The fallacy of the thought ‘I will just live my life following the example of Jesus and others will see Jesus because my life is lived in such a way that they will want Jesus and they will get saved because I have lived such a good example in front of them.’ The problem is first, all of our righteous acts are as filthy rags. (Isaiah 64:6) Second, our lives cannot be lived good enough to bring someone to Christ. Jesus lived a perfect life and he was rejected by the world. Of his three of ministyr on the earth he had 120 followers when he died. Of those 120 he had 12 that were his close disciples. Of those 12 he had three that were his intimate disciples. However, out of those 12 he had one that sold his sole to Satan and betrayed our Lord. While Jesus lived a perfect life he was abandoned in his hour of need by the very ones that shortly before said they would lay their lives down for him. However, He had to tell the disciples who he was before they followed him.
My point is that the only people that recognized who Jesus was without being told were the demon-possessed. (Mark 5:6-7)
According to John 2:23-25 Jesus knew that the multitudes were only following him because he was doing miracles. These miracles were the ways to get some people to open their eyes as to who he was, but he still at a point and time in his ministry, instructed the people as to who he is.
To say that I will live my life and let others see Jesus and they will become saved because of the life I live, is to say that we can live a life better than that of Jesus. The last I checked, and it still holds true, Jesus is perfect and we are not. If we believe we can live a life in such a way that people will get saved is to say that we are perfect and Jesus was not.
Blessings,
Tim
“”Thank you for expressing that my communication skills are that of one with Downs.” ?
I’m sorry, I don’t understand your remark.
May the Lord Christ bless and protect you, Tim.
L’s
What Tim and others are saying in here is that all of those things need to be done with winning the lost at the heart of it. If all we’re doing, and some seem to be going that way, is giving people that are hungry sandwiches; then they’re missing the boat. If some thing that the main thing is to build someone a house, then they’re missing what a Christians mission is supposed to be.
Does that make it clear? Our goal should be to win people to Jesus. Evangelism. Real missions has soul winning at it’s heart.
I have to clarify my agreement. Whether feeding a hungry person wins him to Christ or not, it’s still the Christian thing to do. We’re called to ‘love our enemies’, not to mention the hungry person. If we have the Holy Spirit in us, we should be inclined to do good in the world, without hidden motives. Otherwise, we would all basically be saying, “I’ll give you something to eat if you give your life to Christ.” That’s ridiculous.
I’ve also noticed that some people here insist on forcing their personal interpretation on others as if they are infallible. Not only does this come off as presumtuous, but it is done in a very passive aggressive manner. If you’re going to have a ‘discussion’ about something, you should be open to considering the fact that you are not Christ Almighty Himself, and give others credit for the miles they’ve logged in their walk with our Lord.
As I am more given to ‘discussion’, as opposed to arguement or contests to see who can ‘check mate’ whom, I don’t plan to respond further.
I am pretty sure what to expect in reply. Thanks for letting me share.
Can anyone point me to an example of a New Testament church undertaking a social ministry for the community-at-large beyond the church membership?
…an example from the New Testament, that is.
“I have to clarify my agreement. Whether feeding a hungry person wins him to Christ or not, it’s still the Christian thing to do. We’re called to ‘love our enemies’, not to mention the hungry person. If we have the Holy Spirit in us, we should be inclined to do good in the world, without hidden motives.”
Thank you, Doug. I was beginning to wonder if anyone understood.
Hi BART,
You asked this: “Can anyone point me to an example of a New Testament church undertaking a social ministry for the community-at-large beyond the church membership?”
Well, I don’t know if this will help you, but from St. Paul’s Letter to the Romans (chapt. 12), there is this to think about:
“9 Let love be genuine; hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good; 10love one another with mutual affection; outdo one another in showing honour. 11Do not lag in zeal, be ardent in spirit, serve the Lord.* 12Rejoice in hope, be patient in suffering, persevere in prayer. 13Contribute to the needs of the saints; extend hospitality to strangers.
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. 16Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly;* do not claim to be wiser than you are. 17Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. 18If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God;* for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.’ 20No, ‘if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads.’ 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.”
After scanning all of these comments I find it funny that no one has mentioned the largest social evangelism project undertaken in the history of the church. Most churches still have one.
Sunday School.
Further, in answer to Bart’s question about a social ministry in the New Testament. How about the feeding of the 5000. In Matthew 14, Jesus feeds the crowd simply because they are hungry. They had a need and He had the means to meet that need.
Further, I do not understand in the middle of this debate why very few are standing up and simply saying “There is a call to both meeting needs and evangelizing” in the NT. Look at James 2 and explain to me how you can separate the two? As Christians, we have ALWAYS combined mercy and evangelism. How can our hearts, transformed by the risen Christ, not break for those who suffer from the wages of sin in our world. How can we not be moved to show compassion, and bring comfort, and offer a cup of cool water and a bite of bread?
What I really get a sense of in the OP is fear. Fear that some might go to far and separate the presentation of the Gospel from the exercise of mercy. My question to the OP is “Why so scared?” God has defended His church from this very issue before. He will again. Why not, instead of stirring up dissension against Elevation Church and Summit (who you singled out in your post), model for us the right way of combining mercy with evangelism. Does your church practice combining mercy and the Gospel? Show us the right way to do it if you feel others are going astray.
Sadly, my own experience with those who have expressed sentiments similar to those in this article, is that there is often a disinterest in and a disdain for those who are not yet believers. I DO NOT think that is the position of the author of the OP, but I think it exists in a lot of people in the SBC today. You see it in their eyes when they encounter the homeless and the poor. You hear it in their voices when they talk about welfare and single moms. You catch it in the prideful tone with which they celebrate their own principles of “justice and fairness.”
My prayer is that the GCR moves us not just back to a GC focus but a GC lifestyle- characterized by seeing ourselves as the servants of the world and not its elevated rulers. I fear that we may not learn that lesson until it’s too late.
Just my 2 cents. Sorry for rambling and getting to the comment party so late.
Ryan
Brother Ryan,
First, in all due respect, Have you lost your mind? Sunday School as a social Gospel event? It may be just your 2 cents but you miss the stats that show Sunday School as the most evangelistic organization of the church.
Also, I will let Brother Bart address your feeding of the 5000 event, but that is not what he asked. What church in the NT did social gospel outreach?
Blessings,
Tim
Brother Ryan,
One more thing. As the author of the OP I would like to say there is no fear. I am merely trying to be one that is calling our Brother Pastors to look at their ministries. Of course I read today in my quiet time about Miciah who was called before King Ahab after all of the prophets of Israel told him to attack Syria. In that time Miciah was told to agree with the other prophets because King Ahab was afraid that he would not give him a favorable prophecy. However, Miciah did not heed their concerns of fear and prophesied only what God told him. I am sorry if you read fear in this OP, but I am merely revealing what I believe what God is showing me.
Blessings,
Tim
Tim-
Sorry but to clarify, Sunday School is not a social gospel event. Sunday School started as a social ministry- education for the children who worked in factories 6 days a week and were denied education. Notice, I used the word social “evangelism” in my post. YOU used the word “social gospel.”
Now, it is not a social evangelism event today, that is true, but that’s where its roots are located. And, I would beg to differ with you that SS is the most “evangelistic organization in the church.” It may have been in the heyday of the 50′s and 60′s and it MAY still appear due to the way statistics are reported in the SBC, but the most effective form of evangelism in the church today is the invitation to the Gospel given by a friend to a friend. The very thing the that was criticized in your article. We do not “train” people to share the Gospel like we train them to fix an engine or clean a fish. We release them to share the Gospel that they have accepted.
Sorry for the confusion on the Sunday School deal.
RA
Actually, Southern Baptists, more than any other known religious body or organization or group of individuals took Sunday School and made specific adaptations to make it an evangelistic tool for local churches.
“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
John 13:35
Tim: Christiane tells you about her Downs syndrome son and what is your reply? “Thank you for expressing that my communication skills are that of one with Downs. I count it an honor to be in such company of such special people.”
Where in Christian’s statement did she imply this? She told you a personal story. Brother I think you need a reality check here.
Bart asks: “Can anyone point me to an example of a New Testament church undertaking a social ministry for the community-at-large beyond the church membership.”
How about Matthew 25?
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34″Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37″Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40″The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41″Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44″They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45″He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46″Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
As well as the passage Christiane gave but which was dutifully ignored. :)
Sister Debbie,
Enjoy your time in your world. If you ever decide to live in reality I will be glad to discuss the issues with you.
Blessings,
Tim