Here is the video of the GCR Task Force interim report. It is similar in essence to the one given to the meeting of the SBC Executive Committee on Monday, Febraury 22, 2010. After viewing the video or reading the report, discuss your thoughts, impressions, expectations, enthusiasm, or disappointment in the comment thread below the video.
GCR Progress Report from GCR on Vimeo.
The storehouse tithing part will not work. I believe many would find that it is unbiblical. It places people under the law and not under grace.
Tom,
*SHOCK* You have a problem with biblical tithing.
We are empowered by grace to more than fulfill the righteous standards established for us by the law…not to justify ignoring any standard for righteousness and holiness in every aspect of our lives.
Sola Gratia!
Tithing itself is unbiblical under the New Covenant, and the new standard is now Grace Giving, which has no upper limit. Tithing is one of those doctrines that under closer scrutiny just does not hold up once you leave the Old Covenant (and its definition of the tithe), and Abraham\’s one-time example of paying a tenth from war spoils and not personal money, behind. Russ Kelly has a fine website on this, and more answers being completely faithful to Scripture than you will ever find in any SBC-approved literature of which I am aware.
Byron,
*SHOCK* You guys are just totally surprising here. Two surprises in one day is almost more than I can handle. :-)
Grace giving is the fulfillment of the law not the abolition thereof. Tithing is a biblically significant starting point for obedience in stewardship in the life of the believer.
That being said, since this is the only problematic area I have heard you and Tom mention, I wonder if your overall reaction to the entirety of the GCRTF report would be characterized as positive or negative?…enthusiastic or disappointed? If your reactions are negative, what would make it better?
Sola Gratia!
Grace giving is not really the fulfillment of the Law, since tithing in the Old Covenant was from agriculture and not money, so carpenters and the like did not tithe. The whole point is that tithing was from God’s increase and not man’s. Even Abraham’s example is not a sufficient reason to tithe, since it occurred only one time, and none of it came from his personal money (and all of it could be argued to have occurred under a pagan context, which I do believe). Well, enough about that. There is a website with a lot more information, which I referenced, and funny thing is I only found it after God showed me this in the Scriptures.
Well, I had better refrain from commenting on the GCRTF report as given by Ronnie Floyd. I did not watch all of the video (a little more than half), and skimmed the written report for the second half. I am sure his heart and the hearts of all the GCRTF are in the right place. Just remember that more money and more effort at evangelism will not win souls, only Christ will by the Holy Spirit.
I should have typed, “…after God showed me the truth about tithing from the Scriptures.”
Byron,
*SPEECHLESS*…on paragraph 1 in comment #5.
Truly the salvation of the lost is God’s work. We are merely to be the instruments for sharing this good news…and we need to be doing it more…with better focus.
Sola Gratia.
I’m doubtful that the plan to take NAMB funding away from state conventions will work in connection with the plan to have states promote CP giving. It seems a little strange to tell the states, “You should pour more resources into promoting CP, and, by the way, we’re taking away a bunch of your CP money.” Don’t get me wrong–I love both ideas in theory, but it seems like this will be very hard to sell to state conventions when put together.
Along with that, I wonder if they will take NAMB funding away from all state conventions or only state conventions in the South? I’m in Colorado, and about half of our state budget here comes from NAMB. Taking that away could potentially close the doors altogether.
And, like the gentlemen above, I doubt that much will come of the call for more tithing. Regardless of your interpretation of the Bible’s requirements for giving, this point comes across as the big guys at the top telling the little guys (the churches) what to do. No matter how good or biblical these kinds of pronouncements are (give more money, baptize more people, do more evangelism, pray more, etc.), as far as I can tell they have never done much to change the actual behavior of churches.
And now that I’ve written all of that and read back over it, I realize that I sound pretty negative. In truth, though, I feel very positive about the report. I think they are definitely headed in the right direction in seeking to promote the kingdom of Christ. I’m very grateful for their work.
I have read the report. I like the idea that we are focusing on how to spread the Gospel more effectively. That is a worthy topic.
Here are my thoughts, some of which are in response to what has been said above:
1. I did not see the tithing reference as a big deal. Most Baptists believe in it. I don’t think that is the point of the report.
2. The NAMB – State Convention thing is interesting. To me, it’s really inside baseball. Who cares? In our state, the guys at the State Convention offices are hopelessly behind. They are getting better. But I wouldn’t count on most of them to know how to plant a church that would succeed. The guys at NAMB, I would assume, would be better. But the guys at NAMB are not local, so they would lack some local knowledge.
3. The reference to special giving is good. That should be acknowledged. We give a lot to the EC in Nashville directly anyway.
4. The report is really not much, to be honest. I appreciate the idea and the men who served and the hard work they put in, but these recommendations are just about bureacratic shuffling, which, I guess, is the point.
5. There was a lot of typical Baptist chest thumping.
I come away “underwhelmed” after reading this. It’s as if my parents went to Europe and all they brought me back was a T-shirt.
How much did we spend on this?
Louis:
You said:”1. I did not see the tithing reference as a big deal. Most Baptists believe in it. I don’t think that is the point of the report”
I would say it is a really big deal when it says we are to bring at least 10% first to the local church. It is not biblical to demand that. You say most people believe in it–if they do only in their thoughts because very few practice it in the local church.
Telling SB to give 10% or more (LAW) is not going to work in this day of (GRACE) and their goes all of that money.
Just a few thoughts.
Tom:
The reason I said that I did not think it was a big deal is not because of the theology of that statement, but because the GCRTF can’t really direct churches to do anything. They make recommendations about how to handle the money after it comes in.
If the task force tries to take the tithing issue any further than that (even for polemic purposes), it would not go well. I think that they only said that as a precursor to moving on to the issues that they are dealing with.
I assume that you have seen my comments on various sites around for months now. Theology aside, any group that has to remind its people to give is trying to hold on to what it has. People give out of love and excitement, not obligation.
Hope that makes sense.
The great commission seems, to me, to be about making disciples, not about evangelism. We’ve done a lousy job at the former (judging by how many folks are nowhere to be seen, while proudly being called members), but a good job at the latter. And I don’t see anything in the report that addresses that issue.
But I do have some more studying to do.
Scott,
These guys just do not get the Biblical picture that is seen when it involves money and the word “tithe”.
Tim G, I accept that as your personal viewpoint on the matter, but when I read the New Testament for myself, in context of the New Covenant, the SBC leaves me with an empty picture frame to fill in with little else beside my imagination.
So the plan is to empower an agency (NAMB) that has been dysfunctional for years and can’t even find or keep qualified leadership for any reasonable length of time even paying them 6 figure incomes plus perks galore.
Here’s a new idea let’s just change the name again, maybe that will fix it.
The most effective way to make a real impact in reaching the lost is to empower local churches and Associations who are willing to actually do something rather than study it or make a training module or give a high paying position to a buddy. Quit giving the local church the impression that they should be tithing to the SBC and giving a few bread crumbs to the Association. Set as the Standard the percentage Ronnie Floyd’s Church gives to SBC CP. Last I looked that was less than 2%.
Brother Larry,
I have not seen it in writing anyplace, but it seems that the word out is our leaders are increasing their CP giving. I can tell you that is not something that can be done overnight. It has to be done in the budget year and as anyone knows that worked with church budgets, you cannot go from 2% to 6,7,8,9, or 10% in a line item in one year. If you do something else in the ministry takes a beating. I believe that we watch now to see if the leaders that are leading us into this position will follow through with what they are calling on us to do.
Oh, by the way, Dr. Floyd CP is not less than 2%. It is 2%. Just to be accurate. :)
Blessings,
Tim
The report (by mostly megachurch people one notes) includes a line about churches being immune to being lectured by denominational people about Cooperative Program Giving, a valid point. The same point may be made about lectures on storehouse tithing.
The most significant, concrete recommendations concern NAMB/state conventions and I\’d weight that at about 80%. The other changes are not that substantial. One notes that the word \”seminary\” is not found in the report. Why? Are things that good, that right with our educational system?
Maybe I have drunk the kool-aide, but I am on board with all 6 of the “progress report” components. I like the new missional vision statement. I like the idea of a reinvention and release of NAMB. I like the idea of turning the IMB loose on people groups in America. I like the idea of reassigning CP promotion and stewardship education to the state conventions. I like the idea of reaffirming the CP as our central means of supporting Great Commission ministries, while at the same time acknowledging other gifts. I like the idea of reallocating 1% of the CP budget away from the Executive Committee to the IMB (money saved by reassigning CP promotion to the state conventions). Call me crazy, but these sound like good ideas!
Will they be easy to implement? No. Will they be painful to some? Yes. Can more be done? Absolutely. However, these are good ideas and I look forward with anticipation to the full report on May 3.
Joe White,
You bring up some very good points. I’m still thinking on all of this, but you bring up some very good things.
Also, Tom…and others, NT Christians should start with 10%, and then go beyond the tithe. We are taught giving in the NT…giving beyond what the law of the OT required.
David
I think aside from being a great report, this was Ronnie Floyd’s interview for next president of NAMB. He’d have my vote.
David,
these guys want to do away with the word tithe and because of their “New Cov” perspective, they are missing the principle of Biblical Stewardship!
I love the no tithing under grace idea. Grace and tithing have nothing to do with each other! No one is trying to buy their way into heaven. If you think that teaching tithing removes grace you live in a strange land. The main problem with the teaching of tithing is that it gives some the idea that ten percent is enough. Keep your money and call it grace. You will answer to God for such selfishness. I can see the conversation with God now. “I did not tithe because I thought you would think I was trying to buy my way into heaven. I know that there are those who were trying to spread your word, but I had already heard about grace so there was no point in helping others to hear.” Now I know that this is not what you people are trying to say, but that is what it looks like. Before you get all crazy about this post remember what I started with. Grace and tithing have nothing to do with each other!
Robert,
Well said!
SG!
I think the most powerful point of the study was not necessarily the proposed solutions, but the statements made before the solutions. There are 7 billion people in this world. Maybe 1 billion of those are Christians. Easy math . . . 6 billion people who need Christ. This does not even take into account unreached people groups or people groups that have no Scripture in their own language. The study revealed that with each new generation in the United States we are baptizing less and less of our young people. This is true in the Southern States where the most SBC churches exist in relation to population. Yet the state conventions still retain a large percentage of the CP funds to run state conventions where the strategy is not working. In essence, God has blessed us, and instead of us blessing the nations we have chosen to bless ourselves. This can be seen at many levels of the SBC structure as well as many SBC churches. Most churches are more concerned in building fellowship halls, or gymnasiums than reaching an unreached people group or funding a Bible translation. In my opinion the task force only hit the tip of the iceberg. Systemic change is needed if we are to truly be a Great Commission people.
I hope and pray that we would care enough about our lost neighbors to look at how we can increase our efforts to reach them for Christ. If you are trying to reach an Island full of people needing to be rescued you do not stop funding the rescue effort if things are not going as you would like. Instead you find out what you need to do differently. The answer to the fact that less people are being baptized is to stop trying? America is one of the largest mission fields in the world. Things are getting worse here and if we slow down now we are going to let many souls slip into hell. I love how some try to make it sound as if you are doing more good if you save someone outside of the United States. Every soul is equally important. Look at the small area that Christ disciples evangelized. We need to share where we are and allow the gospel to spread as we go into the world. Christians are the only group that shoots its wounded. Fix the NAMB do not kill it.
The churches who are most effective in reaching their neighbors are usually the ones who are also making great strides in international missions. One geographical region is not to be picked over the other. The great commissions is an all encompassing Acts 1:8 Great Commission. We do however take into account who has access to the gospel and scripture, and who does not have access to the gospel and scripture. Americans usually have a Bible in their home, Billy Graham on the TV and a Christian radio station to listen to. There are many parts of the world that are totally isolated from the Gospel message, have no scripture in their language, and have never heard the name of Jesus.
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