When I surrendered to Christ in 1988 someone asked me if I had counted the cost. As a new Christian I responded that I had, but in reality I could not know exactly what the cost was of following Jesus. I knew that I had surrendered to Him and it made no difference to me what the cost was, in my reputation or what others said about me.
When you are saved out of a Muslim culture and religion it is more difficult than it is for someone like me. The only danger I ever had to concern myself with was the laughs and jeers of my drinking buddies. To one that is saved out of a Muslim culture and religion their lives are placed in jeopardy.
I want to publicly state my admiration to Drs. Ergun and Emir Caner for their public ministry. It would be easy for them to attain their degrees and sit in some ivory tower and espouse the various debates of the reason Christianity is the truth. Do they retreat to such an isolated position? No, they do not. They do the opposite.
Dr. Ergun Caner states all of the time that he will debate anyone, anytime. He is very articulate in expressing the truth of the Gospel and this has cost him much in regards to his personal family habits. I remember being with him one time when he received an emergency call of a death threat to him and his family. He immediately retreated from us to make certain that his family had the security protection that was needed at that moment. There were some scheduling changes needed as he had to depart early. It has also cost him in personal attacks.
The personal attacks range from the truth of their lives before Christ to the academic degrees they hold. See here, here, and here. You may wonder how anyone could call into question these issues. They drink the kool-aide pouring from the poisoned vine of the above links, this Facebook page, and the following videos.
This is one of ten videos placed on YouTube by Muslims trying to harm Dr. Ergun Caner and present him as being untruthful. The problem is, some will view these videos and then use them as truth. Thus, those that use these videos as their “gotcha” moments accept the lies of Muslims to argue against a Brother in Christ. You may think that no person who calls themselves a Follower of Christ would side with a Muslim to degrade and berate a Brother in Christ. I did also until I viewed the following video.
Please note that any believer that calls into question the truth of the Drs. Caner background and degrees use the research of Muslims (those who have a reason for perverting the truth) for their documentation. Allow me to close this post by expressing my heart about this matter. Drs. Ergun and Emir Caner have the academic credentials to be in the positions they hold. Not only do they have the credentials, they are published authors from reputable publishers. They also stand publicly expressing their scriptural convictions of truth. Many do not like it when truth is revealed. Those that do not celebrate truth will try to use everything they can to silence those speaking truth. Then you have those that are jealous and envious of the Drs. Caner. Those envious and jealous will use the lies for a “gotcha” moment in order to accomplish the same ends–silence the truth.
I appreciate both Dr. Ergun and Emir Caner and I know they have accepted this nonsense as the cost of following Christ. I thank God for them and I pray God’s continued blessing on their ministry. May God protect my Brothers from those unbelievers that are doing all they can to bring then harm. May God grant salvation to those unbelievers that are striving to find truth. May God bring conviction to the Brothers and Sisters that are accepting the lies of the ungodly in order to satisfy a jealous and envious heart.
Tim,
Thanks for manning up on this. Hyper-Calvinist James White has whined the very same line for the last 4 years: Ergun Caner is a coward because Ergun Caner won’t debate me. For him, apparently little matters in doctrinal engagement outside public, formal debate, debate concerning which the reader is tortuously reminded about every 28 words–give or take a breathe or two–just how good he (White) is at it.
It’s drudgery to listen to such unmitigated gloating. Sorry.
With that, I am…
Peter
“….every 28 words….”
Huh. An Astute observation.
Tim:
I am bumfuzzled . . . I know it doesn’t take much to do that to me . . .(I know Peter is snickering with a hearty ‘AMEN’!). 8)
I never knew that Dr. Caner was ever ‘thrown under the bus’ about his credentials UNTIL I read it here.
From the dates given, the challenges you referenced (from Mirele) dated WAY BACK YONDER (July 2009). (That is ancient history on the bloggosphere.) Why didn’t you bring it up in July 2009? (The Facebook page is from October 2009, which is still ancient in the cyberworld.)
Why wait until now to bring all this up?
You stated: “You may think that no person who calls themselves a Follower of Christ would side with a Muslim to degrade and berate a Brother in Christ. I did also until I viewed the following video.”
Are you seeking to fulfill a ‘personal vendetta’ in equating Dr. White with Mirele’s blog/Anti-Butch Facebook Page?
From what I saw on Dr. White’s video, weren’t he and the Muslim debater on opposite sides, debating one another?
Methinks your attempt to throw Dr. White under the bus is more like the angry Koreans trying to throw Apollo under the bus . . . ummm, I mean off the rink. :razz:
You stated:
“May God bring conviction to the Brothers and Sisters that are accepting the lies of the ungodly in order to satisfy a jealous and envious heart.”
Tim, why should you be so ambiguous in your accusations?
Who is jealous?
Who has an envious heart?
Please tell us, clearly, who those people are.
I did not see how you link Dr. White’s comments to Mirele’s blog & the Facebook page. Is that the case you are presenting?
I only see Dr. White linking himself to Dr. Caner’s own words.
Butch is a big boy. He is more than capable of defending himself against Dr. White. It is no secret that Butch has sought to throw Dr. White under the bus about as much as Dr. White has sought the same.
Conclusively, I am bumfuzzled why you seek to even bring this irrelevant issue to the forefront unless this is another attempt to join the ongoing ‘gotcha’ game and throw others under the bus.
How is this post so relevant with SBC life that it was posted on SBCToday? You have every right to throw somebody under the bus! You even have every right to play the ‘gotcha’ game with anyone you please. However, I beseech you, brother, to please do it on your ‘personal blog.’
I jest don’t getcha on this one!
Cordially,
–chadwick
Peter, the idea that James White is a Hyper-Calvinist is misguided at best and slanderous at worst.
CW,
Though you did not ask me, if I may, one clear reason I think Tim brings this up is White’s relentless, non-stop infatuation with the Caners (esp. Ergun).
For White, it is not enough to disagree with Dr. Caner. Instead, he must attempt to torture his name with perpetual castigation of “lying”, “dishonesty,” “cowardly,” “fraudulent,” etc. Given that, I suppose Tim though enough already. In fact, I’m thinking of a post myself.
Scott,
Dr. David Allen demonstrates sufficiently White’s theological leanings toward hyper-Calvinism. Hence, your e/o directed at me hardly applies.
With that, I am…
Peter
Chadwick,
You are correct.
Anything back in October 2009 is definitely old news in the “bloggosphere–Except if one is just purely antagonistic by nature–Or if one is obsessed with issues they can’t get beyond for some reason–Maybe because of a problematic pathological nature– Maybe they wanted or “needed” something to give their lives meaning–And maybe they are just angry because another person denied them that which gives them their source of self-worth–Maybe it could be just anything for such a person–Maybe something simple or actually meaningless–Maybe like a debate that did not occur back as far as 2006–Who Knows?–Maybe.
Maybe, just maybe we should wonder why someone can’t let something from 2006 go–Unless, maybe, of course he who cannot let something go from 2006 is either antagonistic or obsessed–or maybe even both. Yeah–maybe so.
It is so easy to become obsessed, maybe. Kinda like I seem to be obsessed with “Maybe” and “–” right now. But–maybe you git my point–Maybe?
Tim,
Sorry my brother but this was horrible scholarship on your part.
In Geneva we would would still like to hear the Debate on the DOG.
Robert I Masters
vote for the 2010 Caner vs White debate
Agreed Tim,
Caner is long on rhetoric and short on rational argument from my measuring stick.
100% Vote for the Caner White Debate. Lets bring it on for the sake of the truth. Lets see if Caner has enough humility and honesty to agree to terms of a debate and not back away at the last minute! God hates pride. Lets test the spirit and see where he is coming from.
The least is the greatest in God’s economy and I am keen for Mr Caner to show that he is the real deal because by my reading of the bible he seems to refuse to acknowledge the entire scriptural record. I guess that would make him not only a synergyst but also a man who places the authority of tradition above the scriptures. As such he might as well be a papist!…and if so …we all know that we should’t be listening to any such person…
Regds
Dave
Brother Chadwick,
Go to this FB page and look at 2/18/2010 at 9:05 am entry. I did not link White and his research, it was the owner of that FB page that did.
Brother Robert,
Please see what I told Brother Chadwick. You make my point by our accusation of my lack of scholarly research. I am not researching, I am merely pointing to the “research” by “scholars” that come to the conclusion the Caners are not being truthful.
Brother David,
The reason James White is doing this is because he desires to debate the Caners. I think if you will check your connections and they were to be honest you will find that it wasn’t the Caner’s that ended the debate it was White and his partner.
Blessings,
Tim
Tim,
Thanks for the FB link. I actually had not read Ascol’s perpetuating this thing. Nor did I know Ascol is now quoting spoof sites as representing accurately what people are saying. I notice Ascol’s quoting what you allegedly said via “nopeterlumpkins”. Is this the new way of doing credible research?
With that, I am…
Peter
Tim:
Thanks, your comment has taken away all of the ‘suspense’ of your ambiguous post.
Your link proves exactly what your post suggested: Fulfilling a personal vendetta against another person, namely Tom Ascol. Why did you not direct your post CLEARLY to Ascol rather than fill a personal vendetta against your nemesis in an ambiguous way?
Again, why did you not address this personal vendetta over at your place rather than here at SBCToday?
Did the SBCToday BoD’s give you free reigns to post your personal Facebook battles on the SBCToday blog? :O
I think Wes, Scott, David, and whoever else makes up the SBCToday BoD’s should take action against your ‘personal vendetta against Tom Ascol post.’ We’ll see! ;)
Please keep your personal vendettas here: http://rebekah1.wordpress.com/
Cordially,
–chadwick
PS,
Peter:
Who is CW? chadwick is two syllables, not two words. 8)
–chad-wick :razz:
Chadwick asks Tim Rogers a question. Tim Rogers answers the question. Chadwick determines Tim Rogers has a vendetta.
What is this all about?
One man chases another all over the internet since 2006. Another puts up a post in 2010.
Chadwick’s conclusions: Man who chases another all over the internet has been “thrown under the bus” and is a victim of abuse. The man who puts up a post one post in 2010 is on a vendetta.
Strange.
If I understand correctly, the euphemism of kool-aid refers to believing something wholeheartedly, blindly and without critical thought.
Now, all the links and videos provided in this post MAY false, and MAY be an example of drinking the kool-aid. I really don’t know.
What I do know is that the two videos on this post that are critical of Ergun Caner are presented by people who know much more about Islam than most, including me. So where is the explanation as to why the two videos are false? From the Caner’s and those who support them, there is nothing but silence. I’ve been a fan of Ergun Caner for several years now, and if there’s one thing that can be considered uncharacteristic of him, it’s silence. :)
The bottom line is I want to know the truth. There are multiple assertions in this post that the videos and links are false. That MAY be true. And I hope it is. But if I just accept it without any evidence or argument, isn’t that just drinking the kool-aid? And doesn’t this post regard that as a bad thing?
Also, David Allen has been corrected by several Calvinists regarding James White and hyper-Calvinism. James White even addressed it here http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=2955 immediately after it happened, while in London defending the Gospel against Islam.
The assumption of this post and those who blindly support David Allen seem to agree, that Muslims and Calvinists are incapable of telling the truth.
That MAY be true, I don’t know. I don’t know everything that Muslims and Calvinists believe, but I also don’t drink the kool-aid that they’re automatically wrong, simply because they’re Muslims and Calvinists. A little documentation and critical evaluation would be nice.
“What I do know is that the two videos on this post that are critical of Ergun Caner are presented by people who know much more about Islam than most, including me. So where is the explanation as to why the two videos are false?”
John W,
The answer to your question as to the falseness of the videos is “presented by people who know much more about” the Caners “than most, including” you verses “people who know much more about Islam” than they do about the Caners or Christianity.
CB:
My main point: Every man has a right to have a vendetta, if he so chooses, whether it be White, Ascol, or Rogers. My main point is that personal vendettas should be settled on personal blogs.
James White’s vendetta against Caner was addressed on his personal website. Tom Ascol’s vendetta against Tim Rogers was on his personal twitter/FB page. Tim Rogers’ vendetta against Tom Ascol is on a blog with multi-contributors.
Cordially,
–chadwick
I believe we all know that the reason for the vendetta against the Caners is due to their anti-Founders type Calvinism. That’s what it’s all about. Tim is trying to defend his friends…the Caners… from the personal attacks that they’re going thru due to their stand against Founders type Calvinists.
I know Tim. He doesnt hate Calvinists, nor does he hate Calvinism. He does love the Caners as brothers in Christ. He does see the Founders type Calvinists as attacking his brothers in Christ.
Also, if White and Ascol have any facts to back up their claim that the Dr.’s Caner are not true Muslims, and dont have the academic credentials that they claim to have….then show us the proof! I mean, give everyone something substantial, instead of speculations and Jerry Springer, “got’cha” moments.
David
–Thanks for manning up on this.–
Yeah, way to man up by totally ignoring what these videos say. Ironically, mokhan247 (the YouTube user who made the Ergun Caner Exposed videos) has shown infinitely more ‘manliness’ than Tim Rogers has because he has shown the ability to play Ergun Caner’s remarks, interact with them, and at least make some attempt to show that Ergun Caner is wrong while Tim Rogers here has merely hopped up and down in anger and engaged in name calling.
–Dr. Ergun Caner states all of the time that he will debate anyone, anytime.–
And he only continues to ruin his credibility each time he says that. If you want to know why James White harps on the fact that Ergun Caner won’t debate him, then let me tell you why. Ergun Caner has never engaged in one single debate in his life; not with White, and not with any Muslim. Every time Ergun Caner says that, he only invites people to point out that it’s simply a lie (hence White’s video), and he’ll never debate James White despite his oft-repeated claim.
–What I do know is that the two videos on this post that are critical of Ergun Caner are presented by people who know much more about Islam than most, including me. So where is the explanation as to why the two videos are false? From the Caner’s and those who support them, there is nothing but silence.–
Bingo, and the great irony is that this very blog post confirms this statement. Does Tim Rogers give an explanation? No. Has he interacted with the comments on this post? No. Has he shown how any of the VIDEO documentation has misrepresented Ergun Caner? No, no, and no. Tim Rogers, like Ergun Caner, has only shown that there’s no substance behind his statements.
Tim, where’s the beef?
Matt,
You sound like such a nice fella.
David :)
I happened to watch both of these videos separately before seeing this blog post and my question is:
What in the heck do these two videos have to do with each other?
In one…a “Muslim” is showing, by direct interaction with Dr. Caner’s remarks; his speech, pronunciation, etc…that he’s not what he claims to be.
Not being a Muslim, I have no idea if that’s true.
In the second video Dr. White is speaking about Dr. Caner’s boast about his “debates” and the actual lack thereof.
Of this; I have researched and from what I’ve seen, this is nothing more than fact.
Those who would defend Dr. Caner by calling White a “stalker” would do better to just council Dr. Caner to quit calling what he does “debates” and just say “he talks to a lotta people” and that would be the end of it..no?
While I agree, both are related to Dr. Caner’s character and honesty but beyond that…just how are they ganging up together on Dr. Caner?
How about this? How about you actually examine the claims made in the videos and debunk them…that would be the thing to do right?
Show how these two videos have “gotten the facts wrong” rather than just rubbed you the wrong way.
What do you say?
It seems that Mr. Rogers is blindly defending Ergun. Not once did Rogers present any facts or even attempt to interact with the accusations against Ergun.
As Dr. White has pointed out, Ergun claims he will “debate anyone, anywhere.” If this be true why will he not debate Dr. White? Dr. White debates the people Ergun says are dead (Shabir Ally).
Also, Ergun claims to have debated people all over the world and from many different religions. Yet not one video or recording has ever been released proving this claim. Surely if this claim were true, Ergun would have loads of recordings. But he does not. Surely if this claim were true, Ergun’s past opponents would acknowledge that a debate occurred. But not one has ever come forth.
Mr. Rogers, you would do well to check your facts before blindly defending the indefensible. This blog post is an embarrassment to the SBC and to truth-loving Christians everywhere. You, sir, owe an apology.
Dr. White has responded to your incorrect comments:
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=3772
Dr. Caner has claimed that he has debated scores of people. And he says he will debate anyone anywhere. And yet, he has refused to make public who he has debated. This proves that this is a falsehood and has not debated anyone. I am surprised that Liberty university and seminary allows this kind of person to be a leader there — there can be no benefit to Liberty, only damage.
Chadwick,
I understand your point. You are correct that all those people have a personal venue by which to respond and comment to others. At the same time, it must be remembered that Tim Rogers is a “stockholder” in SBC TODAY. He has the right to exercise the privilege as such. Surely you would not restrict Tim for exercising his “Capitalistic” privilege of using a blog of which he holds stock equally with others. :-)
Seriously Chadwick, I am no authority on Islam, James White, Tom Ascol, Tim Rogers or Ergun Caner for that matter. But I am an authority on “The Way of The Vendetta” and I can assure you that Tim’s response to you does not constitute vendetta. He simply answered your question as honestly as he could as to where he gathered information. Nothing more, nothing less.
On the other hand, hounding a man around the internet since 2006 over a debate that did not occur does at least smack with the seasoned smell of a vendetta cooking.
–You sound like such a nice fella.–
Well, congrats on showing your own inability to interact, just like our dear Dr. Caner.
As to whether Ergun Caner has debated anyone might depend on the use of the word debate could it not?
Surely, unless one does live in his Mother’s basement in front of a computer all day long, we have all used the word debate with the fulfillment of Christ’s mandate in 2 Timothy 4:1-4 in mind when we say we are willing to debate another person.
Even I, who has not spent enormous amounts of time with Ergun, have heard him, in informal situations, debate the tenants of the gospel with other people.
Surely, all of you who are so familiar with him and his motives have heard him do the same, right?
Not all debates are formal and staged as such. You are seemingly “straining” in the strictest use of the word debate here to make Caner a liar.
Who among you has not used the word debate as did Caner, let him cast the fir…., no, you have already thrown the first one. Throw the next one. Better yet, he who has been throwing them since 2006 continue to do so.
Maybe Caner just needs to man up and debate White.
Brothers,
Sorry for the absence. If you will not I wrote my last post before I began getting ready for my God called duties. AFter our service I enjoyed the lunch time meal with my wife and daughter at K&W. Thus, I am not in silence, as someone has suggested.
Brother Chadwick,
You have either purposely ignored the statement I made, or you did not read it and just looked at the date. I stated a specific date and TIME because I could not link to the specific statement. I was asked how I linked James White and the old articles of another blog that dated back to June. I provided you with a specific time and date that Tom Ascol linked the two together. I did not link the two together, it was Tom Ascol that did that.
What do you do? You respond with a personal vendetta theory that absolutely astounds me. Then you call on David, Wes, and Scott to remove my credentials? I provided you with what you asked.
Brother John,
What I do know is that the two videos on this post that are critical of Ergun Caner are presented by people who know much more about Islam than most, including me. While James White may know alot about Islam, he is no expert on the subject, neither has he been raised in the culture. His “research” clearly comes from those videos that are posted by Muslims that certainly are not scholarly in anyway. Just for the sake of example for the debate. Do you realize that Arabic and Turkish have variant words? See herefor a brief understanding. Thus, it would seem natural that a mispronunciation or even speaking the verse backward in one language would be correct if translated in another language.
Also, your link to James White’s refutation of Dr. Alan, you call that a correction. He gave no refutation that he was a hyper-Calvinist by definition of Phil Johnson. He pointed to his formal debate with a Muslim as his proof he was evangelizing.
Now, Brother John, you have one thing you can do. Keep taking a Muslim’s perspective that Dr. Caner is lying and push this thing as hard as you can. Or, accept that Dr. Caner has written over 20 books on Islam and had them published by reputable publishers who would have certainly done the background checks needed to verify everything that James White says is false. Or, you can accept two reputable Christian Universities that are both accredited by SACS that Dr. Caner has his degrees in order and that James White is pushing falsehood by calling all this into question. Then you can get back to presenting the gospel to the lost, something I am going to do this afternoon.
Brother Matt,
I will not reply in depth as I have given much of your answers to Brother John. I will express to you the same thing I expressed to Brother John. Maybe you can tell me how Dr. Caner has been employed at two two Christian schools of higher learning, both accredited by SACS, and these “false” items were swept under the rug. The truth is, that neither educational institution would have placed him in any position without the goods. Also, the reputable publisher of his more than 20 books would never have published his second book had any of these “falsehoods” were founded. As I told Brother John. Now you can continue to follow the Muslim position against the Caners or you can count this up as a time of personal vendetta by some individuals that are upset the Caners will not debate them. I choose to do the following and move on to sharing the Gospel with the lost. Something I encourage all of our readers to do today.
Brother Robert,
I did not link the two videos, James White did over at his place. He stated there were You Tube videos pertaining to this. The 10 part videos is his “research”. As to the variations in language I believe that you should see my comments to Brother John. As to the claims in James White’s video. Do you know that Dr. Caner contacted James White and acknowledged that he mis-spoke about the very allegations James White makes? Hey, I am not rocket science, but I believe the Bible teaches for us to be ‘quick to forgive’. I believe this should apply to James White as much as it does to everyone else. Let me encourage you also, Robert, take the gospel to a lost person today. Either that or you can continue to take up the falshood of the Muslims.
Daniel,
Welcome to my Neighborhood. Would you be my neighbor? I encourage you to look at my response to others. I believe it will answer your questions. Maybe not to your liking but they are my answers.
To all,
I have more God-called duties that I must do looking after the sheep that God has given me to under-shepherd. I am going out to find some lost person that I can share the Gospel with. I pray that someone comes across your path and you tell them; “Christ died for your sins”. Lets take the Gospel of Jesus Christ into the world.
Blessings,
Tim
So because Ergun Caner was a Muslim, and is not a Christian, he can do no wrong? He can make no mistakes in hi theology that need to be corrected by other teachers?
Only the Word of God is infallible.
And Caner will not debate White, because Caner knows that White sticks to Bible to prove his point, as opposed to Caner’s use of emotion to convince people of his point.
cb,
I somewhat agree with you on the use of the word “debate”. I have ‘debated’ literally dozens Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons at my doorstep. But it seems that the point of contentions is the Dr. Caner has publicly stated that he will debate anyone, anywhere, yet refuses to debate Dr. White. Does he believe Dr. White to be a ‘nobody’, since his refusal to debate him takes Dr. White out of the category of “anyone”?
If I make a stand for something, and say that I am willing to discuss, debate, or otherwise talk, to anyone, anywhere about it, then by not doing so, it makes me out to be less than truthful, or a fraud. Is this what Dr. Caner is? If not, let the debate, discussion, or talks begin. Whatever you want to call it, let’s see it happen!!
Brother Michael,
So, for you, this is really about James White and his debate with the Caners?
Blessings,
Tim
Tim,
Would you please post some proof, or definition of “hyper-Calvinist”? If not, please stop labeling Dr. White as one. He is no such thing. Just because one holds to a “5-point” theology, doesn’t automatically make him “hyper”. I know many who accept the label of “hyper-Calvinist”, and they in no way claim Dr. White as one of their own!!
Thanks!
cb – I can attest that I have never used the word “debate” to mean anything other than the proper definition. You see, I believe that words have meaning and we cannot create meaning to suit ourselves. The meaning of “debate” is not an informal discussion with another. That is called a “conversation.” Even semantic range does not allow your definition.
A debate is a public discourse in which the affirmative and negative sides of a proposition are advocated by opposing speakers.
Now either Caner is ignorant of the definition of “debate” or he used the word incorrectly. Either way, he has been surely corrected and should refrain from calling his conversations “debates” as well as begin saying that he will “converse with anyone, anywhere” rather than “debate anyone, anywhere.”
There is another possibility, though. That is, Caner used the word “debate” knowing full well the definition and hoped that no one would call him on it. I will give Caner the benefit of the doubt on this, however.
Mr. Rogers – Your pride has prevented you from addressing honestly the issue at hand. This mindset is exactly why the SBC needs the GCR and a good dose of humility.
Dr. Caner has most definitely NOT contacted Dr. White concerning his statements.
Yes, keep repeating the “hyper-Calvinist” label and hope it sticks this time. Thank you, Peter. Logical consistency in one’s beliefs just isn’t the virtue it once was, apparently. God simply does not have the freedom to love and save those whom He chooses. Now, I suspect James White might be one of those dastardly supralapsarians sneaking around under the cover of orthodoxy. I am not sure if I am right or not about that. But his primary sin apparently is being logically consistent in applying both the sovereignty of God and divine purpose in election to those He calls out for salvation, and failing to be sufficiently apologetic for it. Thank goodness he is not in the SBC! We just could not have that.
He just teaches in an SBC seminary. Unlike Dr. Caner :)
Brother Daniel,
First you have a right to your own opinions, but you do not have the right to make your own definitions. From Merriman-Webster: : a contention by words or arguments: as a : the formal discussion of a motion before a deliberative body according to the rules of parliamentary procedure b : a regulated discussion of a proposition between two matched side What you have described is a strict definition of a Formal debate. If that is what is being discussed then I believe one would conclude that if Dr. Caner opened his class on World Religions and invited in various people from different religions for the class to ask questions and for Dr. Caner and the person representing the World Religion to answer, you would not consider that a “debate”.
Also, I just got back for being out in my yard building a relationship with my lost neighbor. I am sure the GCR is needed in my life and I thank you for reminding me of my first work.
RazorKiss,
Your proof of that is where?
Blessings,
Tim
Razorkiss,
What SBC Seminary is it that James White teaches?
Blessings,
Tim
1) I’m a regular in Dr. White’s chat channel, where we typically hear first of any such contact. Just yesterday he commented that Dr. Caner has not contacted him at all concerning any of these matters, if my memory serves me correctly.
2) Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary.
~Joshua
Notice in the above definition – 1) is a formal discussion, 2) is a regulated discussion.
Debates, unless otherwise stated, are formal by nature.
At some point, one hopes, Liberty will deal with the fact that its poster child ex-Muslim apologist-president actually has no debates at all available for review, despite styling himself as an avid debater.
Tim write: “Dr. Ergun Caner states all of the time that he will debate anyone, anytime.”
I would challenge Tim to actually link to *any* formal debate that Dr. Ergun Caner has done with *anyone*! If one checks out the erguncaner.com site and navigates to “debate” one will find this: http://www.erguncaner.com/home/debate/default.php. A single online “debate.”
Hardly a ringing endorsement of Caner’s claim to debate anyone, anytime.
Now, I know exactly where to buy my Ergun Caner t-shirts, but I’m unclear as to where I might purchase copies of his numerous debates, in dozens of states and on multiple continents.
Tim writes:
“Those that do not celebrate truth will try to use everything they can to silence those speaking truth.”
Is James White one who does not celebrate the truth? Say so.
“Then you have those that are jealous and envious of the Drs. Caner. Those envious and jealous will use the lies for a “gotcha” moment in order to accomplish the same ends–silence the truth.”
Is James White one who is jealous and envious of the Caners; does White use lies in order to accomplish a silencing of the truth? Say so.
“May God protect my Brothers from those unbelievers that are doing all they can to bring then harm.”
Is James White an unbeliever who is doing all he can to bring the Caners harm? Say so.
I certainly take it that, from your post, that you hold all of the above; otherwise, you would surely have nuanced and qualified your post to specifically deny such obvious implications.
Your post seems to constitute a willful blindness to the facts on the ground. It’s certainly not to any degree constitutive of actual scholarship. I say that as a born-in-the-covenant, ultra-conservative, believing Southern Baptist Christian.
But, again, can you link to any place where I can purchase a formal debate engaged in by Dr. Caner? I sincerely and truly hope you can. I haven’t been able to track one down, yet; but, I would love to listen in.
Thanks.
Chris
Let me preface all of this by noting that I am not particularly a fan of Dr. Caner, particularly the ridiculous taser incident. I hold no brief for either side here, and would tend to identify more with the views professed by Dr. Ascol and to a lesser extent, Dr. White.
I don’t think that Dr. White’s brand of Calvinism quite reaches the point of hyper-Calvinism as it has been defined historically. But it seems to me that the idea that God has no love whatsoever for the non-elect could possibly be fairly deemed to be a hyper-Calvinist tendency, or at the least, an area of serious weakness. This is how Calvinist Iain Murray referred to A.W. Pink’s similar views on the subject.
For almost all of my life as a Christian, I have been a Calvinist, although at this point some of the High Calvinist folks who tend to dominate Calvinism today would probably wish to pin the Amryaldian tag on me, somewhat erroneously in my view. But regardless, I’m not a fan of the mentality that you haven’t preached the gospel or are in error if you don’t have an “altar call.” So I would have differences with men on both sides. (I’m still looking for that elusive altar in a Baptist church. If any of you find one, please send me a picture.)
With regard to “vendettas” (which no Christian has a “right” to,) it’s most unfortunate that Drs. Ascol and White feel compelled to repeat an evil report from the enemies of the cross. If they have any evidence with regard to academic fraud and misrepresentation, then they need to play the man and put their evidence on the table.
While we’re on the subject of “vendettas,” I have to admit to having been disgusted by a post on the Founders blog last year that appeared to deliberately cast some remarks by Dr. Yarnell in the worst possible light, ascribing to him views that to my understanding were not even held to by the Landmarker Triumvirate. To my knowledge this has not been publicly repented of. If it has, someone please point me to it.
With regard to the debater, I can’t seem to find that particular ministry in the NT. Would some of his fans care to show me where I err, if indeed I do?
That’s not to say that formal debates are unbiblical. That’s not my position. I’m more concerned with the tendency to constantly say to those with whom one disagrees “I challenge you to a debate!” At times it seems as childish as the schoolboy refrain “Wanna fight about it?”
For some people, unfortunately the “cage stage” seems to last a lot longer than 2 years.
Scott, Robert and David, thumbs up to you ! To all other critics of James, you are terribly misinformed without question. As far as Ergun goes, a few years ago I had met him personally at a local church where he was a “guest” speaker. Needless to say, I was not at all impressed by him and was actually dismayed by his pomposity. After he finished up, there was an opportunity to meet with him at his designated table which was set up with a security guard ( church member ). I provided him with two small booklets entitled, Calvinism or Hyper-Calvinism, compiled by Ernest C. Reisinger and Thomas K. Ascol along with What should we think of Evangelism and Calvinism ? as authored by Ernest C. Reisinger. Hopefully Ergun has taken the time to read both of them and not label Calvinism as Hyper-Calvinism nor accuse Calvinists as being anti-evangelistic. He won’t debate James publically..he’s not an exegete like James and Ergun knows it !
Tim – A debate is not, and has never been, a Q&A session. It is, as you yourself posted, a regulated (i.e., moderated) discussion of a proposition (sing. not pl.).
What you are describing more closely resembles a forum and does not fall into even the loosest definition of debate. Also note that I am using “debate” as a noun and not a verb.
So again, Caner needs to publically acknowledge that he has never engaged in a debate and also adjust how he presents himself to the world. Muslims jump all over him and for good reason.
P.S. I’ve just been informed that even Dr. Habermas admitted to never seeing Ergun’s debates either written, video, etc. I am working on getting the source of that information.
Razor – Yes, thank you for pointing out that a debate is, de facto, “formal.”
re: ministry of the debater – I agree wholeheartedly.
As a regular friend of AOMin’s ministry, I can wholeheartedly agree with that statement. As Dr. White very often says, apologetics is the duty of every believer. The “defense and confirmation of the faith” is the duty of a churchman – one who abides in his local fellowship, with the blessing, encouragement, and support of his fellowship. Those familiar with Dr. White know that this is how AOMin operates, and that this is the context in which his ministry moves.
As a layman apologetics teacher myself, I wouldn’t dream of teaching anyone at or out of my church without the blessing of my elders – which I have. What gets to me about this affair is that Dr. White is seen, for some reason, as an “outsider” – when he is a seminary professor at one of *our* seminaries. While Dr. Caner is a member of the SBC, his seminary is not. Neither are outsiders – yet, when a man who has faithfully taught at one of our seminaries for years directly asks Dr. Caner for an answer concerning these issues, he is ignored, and folks jump to the defense of a man who will not answer questions!
I encourage you to call Dr. White’s radio show once he gets back to the States. Similar to the last SBC brouhaha, he is in London, debating Muslims. Did you hear that? Debating Muslims, half the world away, while we circle the wagons to defend the dean of a seminary that isn’t our convention’s. Why?
Have we examined what has been said by both sides? From a large portion of the commentary I see here, there has not been such an examination done. There has been, however, a large amount of name-calling from Dr. Caner, as well as multiple slanderous accusations. I encourage the brethren to see if these things are so – not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Chris Poe wrote:
>>With regard to “vendettas” (which no Christian has a “right” to,) it’s most unfortunate that Drs. Ascol and White feel compelled to repeat an evil report from the enemies of the cross. If they have any evidence with regard to academic fraud and misrepresentation, then they need to play the man and put their evidence on the table.<<
Me: What do you have in mind here, specifically? It may be known to the regulars, but I\'m in the dark. What is the \"evil report from the enemies of the cross\" that Drs. Ascol and White \"feel compelled to repeat?"
Thanks.
Chris S.
Brother Joshua,
James White spoke in the video of his knowledge of what Dr. Caner told him.
Also, James White doesn’t even hold an accredited PhD. How, can he be a Prof at GCBTS? He certainly is not listed here as even being associated with the SBC Seminary you claim.
To the Rest,
I must run. I have an evening Bible Study on the Purpose of the local church.
Blessings,
Tim
Also, take a look at this from Dr. White’s Twitter account:
“Sent documentation of @erguncaner twice claiming to have debated Shabir Ally. Just heard from Shabir: never happened”
Perhaps you are under the mistaken impression of what degrees Dr. White has or does not have? Obviously, his credentials are sufficient to teach. Perhaps you’d care to contact Golden Gate in reference to that? His teaching history is readily available on his website.
He is an adjunct professor at Golden Gate, as is referenced by even a cursory search.
Here is a link to James White’s teaching history at Golden Gate, though I cannot find him in any current faculty list at Golden Gate (I am assuming he is not currently teaching there):
http://vintage.aomin.org/James.html
>>Also, James White doesn’t even hold an accredited PhD. How, can he be a Prof at GCBTS? He certainly is not listed here as even being associated with the SBC Seminary you claim.<<
So, now you\'re claiming that James White has never taught at GGBTS? That is, you\'re claiming that James White has never taught at GGBTS in the face of the fact that he has on multiple times taught at GGBTS? This just gets curiouser and curiouser. I\'d suggest that you call GGBTS and ask when White last taught at GGBTS and when he is next scheduled to teach there, and then post the response you receive.
Otherwise, you appear to be accusing White of lying about having taught there. Now, that accusation would be, I promise, false. But, why are you making it, one wonders?
There seems to be quite an unthinking vendetta against White in play here. A vendetta in the service of which you see fit to call into question whether or not White is \"even [associated] with the SBC Seminary\" at which he claims (factually) to have taught.
So, are you claiming that White has never taught at Golden Gate? Say so.
Such a claim is quite easily refutable. Otherwise, what is your point?
@Daniel: I take White\'s claim that Ally denies having ever debated Caner quite seriously.
One wonders whether Rogers takes it seriously. But, he apparently questions whether White has ever been associated with GG!
Chris S.
Hmmmm. All of this boils down to Mr. White pitching a fit for he cannot debate as he desires. I have an idea for all of us – why dont worry more about people destined for hell than we do about Mr White pitching a fit – not to mention Tom Ascol.
I will say it again – there NO excuse nor justification for an Christian to use Muslim propaganda against another brother in Christ. Mr. White repeatedly does this and I would not give him the day of until he repents.
Tim G, I just find your whole comment to be ironic. James White has to repeatedly remind people about the non-debate, in my opinion, because if he did not, the propaganda against him would rule the day. Actually, this is all about caring about people going to hell, in one sense, because if an apologist for the Christian gospel suffers credibility, rightly or wrongly, then he loses respect and the attention of the very ones he is trying to reach. The response should not be to shoot the messenger but attack the allegations and show why they are false, and I continue to be amazed that that action seems to be discouraged in favor of circling the wagons and protecting the image of the SBC or one of its personas. Truth is truth no matter where it comes from. If Christian X tells a lie, and Muslim Y and Christian Z see it and rebuke it, then why should the truth become less important than the event of Christian Z agreeing with Muslim Y? The second false idea in your comment concerns the idea of propaganda: in the very video of James White that TR posted here, if I am not mistaken, JW points out an error in Muslim practice that Ergun Caner has been guilty of. Now, that statement of JW’s is either correct or incorrect, and because this assertion can be verified or dismissed, it is very unlikely to be propaganda which tends to be more emotional and subjective in nature.
Tim G – So you’re against using “Muslim propaganda” (care to provide evidence of this?) against a brother but you’re fine with a brother (Caner) lying about his credentials and history?
And again, not one person has interacted with the accusations against Caner. They all just want to throw red herrings and attack White.
Have just a minute before classes. Chris, I have not claimed that James White has never taught at GGBTS I merely asked how one that holds degrees from a non-accredited seminary can teach at a seminary whose accrediting agency states the Prof’s degrees must be accredited? That is it. Then I peruse the link I presented in the above comment as questioning Razorkiss’ response and do not see James White listed as a Prof or either an Adjunctive Prof. So, where is my blunder? Show me the classes that James White is teaching at GGBTS and where he is referenced as a prof or adjunctive prof at the seminary. Oh, you cannot use James Whites website. Unless, that is, you are willing to verify his claim with more than “James White says…”:
Blessings,
Tim
–I will not reply in depth as I have given much of your answers to Brother John.–
Wrong, Tim Rogers. What you said to John had virtually nothing to do with what I said. You didn’t address the fact that you blasted James White without showing any sign of being able to refute his remarks about Ergun Caner. You didn’t say anything about the fact that Ergun Caner has never debated in his life and never will debate James White even though he says he’ll debate “anyone.” Again, where’s the beef?
–I will express to you the same thing I expressed to Brother John. Maybe you can tell me how Dr. Caner has been employed at two two Christian schools of higher learning, both accredited by SACS, and these “false” items were swept under the rug.–
1. These things weren’t swept under the rug. They’re out in the most public forum there is. 2. Because, believe it or not, there are bad universities and bad seminaries out there, Tim Rogers. Maybe you’re unaware of the incident regarding Ergun Caner’s conduct during the ultimately cancelled debate about Calvinism. If a university or seminary had any discretion they wouldn’t have allowed their president to run amuck with his abominable behavior. Unfortunately, they did, and they still do, which is why I’m never going to darken the doorway of either Liberty Seminary or Liberty University.
–The truth is, that neither educational institution would have placed him in any position without the goods.–
Untrue. They have, and continue to have him in their HIGHEST position.
–Also, the reputable publisher of his more than 20 books would never have published his second book had any of these “falsehoods” were founded. As I told Brother John.–
Says who? How about the reputable publisher Bethany House who has more than once printed Norman Geisler’s horrible book on Calvinism? Norman Geisler’s infinite misrepresentations and caricatures got past the ‘reputable publisher’ that should have caught it. So no, I have no reason to think Ergun Caner’s publishers have fact-checked his material.
–Now you can continue to follow the Muslim position against the Caners or you can count this up as a time of personal vendetta by some individuals that are upset the Caners will not debate them. I choose to do the following and move on to sharing the Gospel with the lost. Something I encourage all of our readers to do today.–
Ah yes, I should have seen that one coming. Act like such a saint; that you’re so much more concerned with spreading the gospel. Honesty doesn’t matter, justifying slanderous statements doesn’t matter, just give me more Jesus. You’re not fooling anybody, Tim Rogers. You think this matter is as important as anyone else, you’re just looking for a way out of dealing with the fact that you acted wrongly, and you’ve been called on it by just about everybody. Don’t give me this’ I-don’t-have-time-to-talk-about-such-unimportant-matters’ garbage. Nobody’s buying it.
So, I will ask you once again, where’s the beef? I can deal and interact with what YOU said. Can you?
I occasionally read this blog and I want to convey to the readers that I personally was a student of Dr. James White at Golden Gate’s Rocky Mountain Campus in Denver in his Philosophy of Christian Religion (Apologetics) class in the spring of 2000.
I won’t weigh in on the ongoing “debate” between Dr. Caner and Dr. White, but I just wanted to provide some facts on Dr. White’s teaching.
I also know that he has taught at the Phoenix campus as well as the main campus in Mill Valley.
>>Have just a minute before classes. Chris, I have not claimed that James White has never taught at GGBTS I merely asked how one that holds degrees from a non-accredited seminary can teach at a seminary whose accrediting agency states the Prof’s degrees must be accredited? That is it. Then I peruse the link I presented in the above comment as questioning Razorkiss’ response and do not see James White listed as a Prof or either an Adjunctive Prof. So, where is my blunder? Show me the classes that James White is teaching at GGBTS and where he is referenced as a prof or adjunctive prof at the seminary. Oh, you cannot use James Whites website. Unless, that is, you are willing to verify his claim with more than “James White says…”:<<
Now, that strikes me as an odd conjunction of claims to make: (1) You\'re not claiming that White has never taught at GG; (2) You\'re merely claiming that one can\'t take White\'s word for it that he has taught at GG, so prove it? Is that it? Really? Or, prove that he is formally listed as a prof or adjunct? Okay. So, are you admitting that White has taught for GG, but not under those titles? I\'m not sure.
AFAIK, he has taught at GG extension centers. Does that not count? Now, is it your claim or is it not your claim that White has never taught for GG?
If it is your claim that White has never taught for GG (let me know), then I will gladly prove you wrong on that count, and don\'t mind doing so. If you will confirm that specific claim on your part, I will provide the relevant contradictory documentation on mine.
But, again, while we\'re on the issue of questioning claims: can you provide me a link to *any* formal debate engaged in by Ergun Caner? You seem to believe that he is an accomplished debater. (Have I read you wrongly at this point?)
Let\'s compare our claims: (1) I claim that I have been unable to find any formal debate by E. Caner available on the \'Net. Now, to be sure, you can\'t really disprove that particular claim, since it is a subjective report; but, certainly, you can more or less put the lie to its underlying substance by providing a link to any one of the numerous debates Caner claims to have engaged in. (2) You claim that…what? White has never taught for GG? That White is not an on-staff prof at GG? I don\'t know what specifically you\'re actually denying here. Spell it out for me, and I will formally put myself on the line to disprove your claim, provided it is actually disputable (and I\'ll let you know if it is not). Will you do likewise re: mine?
Thanks.
Chris S.
Mr. Rogers,
You stated “Dr. Ergun Caner states all of the time that he will debate anyone, anytime.” The fact is that he ran from a debate with Dr. White- after trying to alter the rules previously agreed upon. He will NOT debate anyone at anytime. Your attack on Dr. White makes me wonder how many Southern Baptists are more concerned with backing arrogance then fighting for the truth no matter what it costs.
1. I think Dr. White either is or was some kind of adjunct professor at GGBTS. An adjunct and/or part time instructor is not the same as a full time professor.
Neither Luther Rice Seminary nor Louisiana Baptist Seminary are accredited but there are well known leaders who have degrees from those schools, although I doubt any are full time professors in accredited seminaries. But would anyone who is harping on accreditation refuse to refer to Jerry Vines or Charles Stanley as Dr. because their doctorates were earned at Luther Rice?
2. I have read several of Dr. White’s books and have found them to be very helpful. I have also visited the AOMIN chat channel from time to time over the years, including within the past couple of weeks. So I’m not someone who is unfamiliar with him by any stretch of the imagination.
Now IMO there’s no doubt that things like the tazing incident are far more reminiscent of the Jerry Springer show than anything Dr. James White has ever done.
3. My reference to the “enemies of the cross” was a reference to the posts by Muslims that allege that Ergun and Emir Caner were “fake Muslims.” This was repeated and linked to by Dr. Ascol on Facebook.
4. If Dr. Caner has claimed to have engaged in numerous debates but has not done so, then it is right to call him on it.
I’d think most people think of a formal debate when someone claims to have engaged in numerous debates, especially with regard to apologetics. (Witnessing might be a better term to employ when referring to informal, impromptu settings.)
Saying “it depends on what you consider a debate” sounds a little like “it depends on what the meaning of the word is is” to me.
All that being said, it seems to me that railing against Dr. Caner has become a hobby horse with some people, just as railing against Calvinism has been a hobby horse with others. Even if Dr. Caner is guilty of everything he is accused of, I rather doubt that it’s worth the time and energy expended, unless you have a vested interest in what’s going on at Liberty.
May I ask if I am going to be allowed to respond to the many falsehoods posted about me on this thread? I just submitted a lengthy reply, and it has not appeared.
James White
I am going to assume there is a length limitation, and cut this up into parts….
Greetings:
My, what an incredible array of comments. Only a few focus upon the reality of the situation: claims made, in public, by the President of a seminary that are contradicted by documentation (who posts the documentation is, of course irrelevant). A sad thing to observe.
A few comments if I may.
1) The false accusation that I am a hyper-Calvinist is easily refuted by any honest person with the integrity to read my published works. It is a lie, a dishonest one, only promulgated by those who lack the integrity to actually respond to my presentations meaningfully. Shame on those who repeat it.
2) I have taught for GGBTS since 1995. All the courses I have taught are listed on my website. I was on campus in Mill Valley teaching an apologetics course on atheism and Islam January 13-15th; I posted my grades only last week. I have taught Greek, Greek Exegesis, Hebrew, Hebrew exegesis, Systematic Theology, Christology, Development of Patristic Theology, Christian Philosophy of Religion, and numerous courses in apologetics, in Mill Valley, Phoenix, and (once) in the Denver campus.
Tim, is teaching at a SBC seminary now the final word on orthodoxy? I, for one, do not care whether he ever taught at any SBC seminary. When Dr. White’s teaching and doctrine are tested against the SCRIPTURES, he proves to be highly orthodox. THAT is the only standard of orthodoxy, not what the SBC, Liberty, or any other organization, thinks.
Also, does the same hold true for “accreditation”? Just because a school or seminary claims to be “accredited” doesn’t mean squat. What if he held the highest degree from ORU, or a degree from Herbert W. Armstrong’s Ambassador College? How about a Phd from BYU? No, the man’s doctrine and credibility are the measure that matters, not man-made degrees or “accreditation”. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against ministerial degrees. I have 2, myself, and an currently working towards my Masters in Theology, so I have nothing against education.
What I’m getting at is that the SBC doesn’t have the market cornered on theology and orthodoxy, so to attempt to discredit Dr. White by the ‘SBC standard’ is an exercise in futility. I hope you see the point I’m trying to make.
After watching the posted video, I regret having commented on this post.
Now, I do stand by my comments regarding Dr. Ascol’s FB post that appears to have uncritically repeated accusations from enemies of the cross, apparently without corroborating evidence.
However, if the owners of this site can’t see the contradiction between this post and the video posted by Dr. White, then maybe there ought to be a re-think about this whole enterprise.
At this point I do think that my decision to allow a post of mine to be reposted here was against my better judgment.
The thread about storehouse tithing is little better. Given the course of that discussion, I’m wondering if all of the sound and fury over the issue is little more than an expression of traditionalism.
For a blog that is supposed to be dedicated to Baptist Identity, it’s a rather sad commentary to find at least one of the principals is ignorant of the historic Baptist teaching on the Sabbath, whether you agree with it or not.
As noted in this comment thread, I’m not a fanboy of Dr. White. But I do agree with the following statement on his blog in reference to this post: “Ignore the facts, shoot the messenger.”
4) I remain shocked that so many in this thread think that there is something evil about pointing out the inconsistencies in Ergun Caner’s claims, just because Muslims do the same thing. The last comment I read from “Tim G” actually called for me to “repent” of using “Muslim propaganda against another brother in Christ.” Amazing! Video and audio recordings of Ergun Caner’s own voice can be turned into Muslim propaganda? Are you folks seriously suggesting that the Muslims altered these recordings? If they did, where is the evidence? Would it not be very easy for Ergun Caner to post the unaltered versions, exposing the lies? Has he done so? No, he has not.
Let me conclude by calling all of you who have refused to engage the *substance* of my video (which documented another simply false statement by Ergun Caner made only a month ago on a national radio program) to step back, take a deep breath, and ask yourself a simple question: how can you look a Muslim in the eye and say you are being honest in dealing with his beliefs when you act like this? How can you look in the mirror in the morning? Have you truly become so blind that you cannot see that you are acting according to traditional loyalties rather than the truth? It should be tremendously troubling to you that you would not first ascertain the truthfulness of what is being said before attacking *me* for pointing out the the Emperor has no clothes.
James White
>>>4. If Dr. Caner has claimed to have engaged in numerous debates but has not done so, then it is right to call him on it.<<
That is precisely my point. Where can one find these numerous debates spread out over dozens of states and multiple continents?
Debates that Dr. Caner claims to have engaged in? I think that you, Chris Poe, are right "to call him on it." But, will someone, anyone(?), you(?), actually do that?
I sincerely hope so. At some point Liberty's BoT is going to have to deal with this massive, yet apparently invisible, elephant in the room.
Chris S.
Dr. White – As I messaged you on Twitter, Tim Roger’s point of view is not shared by me and I would venture to guess by many within the SBC and without. I have personally spoken to many students and professors on campus at SBTS regarding Ergun and his claims. They all expressed similar viewpoints; that is, Ergun should be truthful or, at the very least, more forthcoming regarding his credentials and history.
As a former Liberty student I am deeply burdened by this cowardly display from Dr. Caner. What a tragedy that someone who is president of a seminary refuses to show proof and address the errors that people are calling him out on. Let’s use some logic here. Isint that the foundation of Apologetics? Addressing accusations from others?
I challenge Dr. Ergun Caner, to stand on the courage of his claims and provide proof and to engage in public, visible debates for the sake of the Gospel. Defend truth, be an Apologist.
I just can’t imagine the Apostle Paul sitting back and ignoring people who make accusations that he has Lied. The Apostles would have given their lives to uphold their integrity so that the GOSPEL might prevail.
This has to do with the credibility of men, so that the men will give credibility to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Defend your credibility Ergun Caner, please for the Sake of the Gospel. Play the Man.
Also, I appreciate James White actually coming on this website and defending himself from false claims and accusations.
I can only ask that Ergun Caner does the same.
In Christ Alone.
James White,
I’m glad you have posted your points 1, 2 and 4 of your reply. You left out point 3 (or it disappeared). That’s okay with me. I struggle with point 3 of TULIP.
Maybe an attempt at humor is inappropriate on this comment stream?
Dave Miller,
An attempt at humor may not be inappropriate. Some of the discussion in this thread (including some of mine) may well have generated more heat than light.
I would hope that if those who’ve made the accusations concerning Dr. White, now reply (as he requested) with a factual analysis of the substance of his video…interact with his claims…not with him personally…you wouldn’t let someone get away with that kind of behavior on the street would you?
That would seem to be apologetics 101…no?
Mr. Rogers,
You have not done your homework and have made some terrible arguments in attempting to blindly defend Ergun Caner and attack James White. That Muslims might use the material any Christian including James White might post is irrelevant to the truth or falsehood of that material and does not warrant linking the sources of that material to Muslims as is evident in the constant use of the Bible by Muslim apologists. You have falsely written that “James White is doing this is because he desires to debate the Caners” while writing in the very next line that “it wasn’t the Caner’s that ended the debate it was White and his partner”. Does James White desire to debate the Caners or not? Anyone who watches the video in question should be able to discern that Dr. White is responding to comments made by Dr. Caner that are clearly directed at those allegedly like Dr. White if not at Dr. White himself (who else, after all, is Dr. Caner referring to?). It is therefore not the case that the video in question just stems from a desire on James White’s part to debate Ergun Caner. Rather, Dr. White is responding to words from Dr. Caner (that are not posted by a Muslim) where Dr. Caner launches his own attack.
Contrary to your claim, Mr. Rogers, James White should be considered an expert in the area of Islam. Whether or not he was raised in the “culture” is completely irrelevant to his expertise on the subject. Does being raised a Muslim until the age of 13 really qualify someone as an expert on the topic of Islam? Was not Caner’s Mother a Christian? Why does Caner make such blunders in his presentations of Muslim beliefs?
That Dr. White’s research is limited to videos posted by Muslims is laughable. It is my understanding that the man spends hours upon hours studying the subject of Islam every day, is clearly a student in the Arabic language, and has debated the topic much, much more than Dr. Caner has ever been shown to have debated the topic against Muslims. Dr. White has worked alongside such knowledgeable apologists as David Wood and Sam Shamoun. Mr. Rogers, you are hardly in a position to dismiss Dr. White’s knowledge in this area. Your attempt to dismiss Caner’s many errors on the basis of Arabic and Turkish variants is irrelevant. One only needs to know English and/or have a very basic understanding of Islam in order to understand where Caner goes wrong in the public statements he has made. Are you really suggesting, for example, that Dr. White is wrong in his observations concerning Caner’s “quoting” Shabir Ally and stating that he is a “leader” who is now dead because Dr. White is “no expert” and does not understand Arabic/Turkish variants?
One need not take a “Muslim perspective” to see that Dr. Caner is either ignorant or dishonest in many of his claims. By the way, what are the names of the twenty plus books that Caner has written on Islam? Are these as difficult to find as the debates that Dr. Caner constantly boasts about?
This was a disappointing article, as well as much of the argumentation in the following threads. Dr. White never attacked Caner’s credentials, he pointed out the fact that Dr. Caner claims to be willing to debate anyone, anywhere…but there is no actual evidence of him ever doing so. He has a standing challenge to debate Dr. White and willnot do so, and has instead made slanderous accusations directed toward “myopic Reformed guys” whose debates are akin to the Jerry Springer Show. Well I’m sorry, but that is an attack upon Dr. White’s scholarship and integrity, and he has every right (ideed, obligation) to respond.
http://aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=3772
Dr. White responds to this blog posting in his own words.
“I can attest that I have never used the word “debate” to mean anything other than the proper definition. You see, I believe that words have meaning and we cannot create meaning to suit ourselves. The meaning of “debate” is not an informal discussion with another. That is called a “conversation.” Even semantic range does not allow your definition.”
Daniel,
I was not actually in reference to a personal definition of mine. I was saying Caner may have been using the word “debate” as it is used in Scripture. Maybe Caner thinks biblically in his conversations. But what do I know. After all I am just momma’s little boy. But I have moved out of her basement.
Nonetheless, I yield to you in your ability to read Caner’s mind. After all, you are The Great Carnac.
Of course if one redefines (yes, redefines) “debate” to mean what Caner and his defenders want it to mean (which is, as has been demonstrated, contrary to the way the word is typically understood), then what Caner constantly boasts of concerning “debates” turns out to not really be that impressive afterall. All sorts of people have informal discussions with adherents of other religions all the time.
Dr. White has debated some of the foremost critics of the Bible and the Christian faith. He debates (meaning he actually meets them in a public forum in front of an audience and video cameras) Muslims on their own turf, taking the time to learn their Scriptures and the Arabic language so he can interact with the best they have to offer. He takes the Gospel to people wherever they are and I will bet that he has done more open air evangelism than any of the people on this website who want to label him a hyper-Calvinist. Let Dr. Caner bring forth the evidence that he has done likewise and I know Dr. White will gladly retract the claim that Dr. Caner is not being truthful.
Additionally, the claim that he is ‘obsessed’ with debating the Caner brothers is simply silly. White was responding to an accusation launched by Ergun Caner. If Dr. Caner had simply let the matter lie, and would stop claiming that he will debate “anyone, anywhere”, I don’t think Dr. White would waste his time talking about him. The record is clear and available to all. If you don’t want White to keep pointing out the obvious, then don’t make indefensible claims in the public arena.
Here’s another helpful link concerning the Hyper-Calvinism bit. James White links to both Phil Johnson and Tom Ascol, who both deny the charge that James White is a Hyper-Calvinist. Of course, I personally cannot help people come to the right conclusion, but I can say all the evidence is out there.
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=2993
So, let me get this straight.
On one blog post Caner is attacked because he is a son of the CR by people who lean to Antinomianism and New Covenant Theology. Here he is being attacked by Calvinists who are angry because he does not embrace their particular way of promoting Calvinism.
Is that about right?
And then there is the fellow who has made a name and gathered a following for himself by chasing Caner around since 2006 because he did not debate him.
BTW, teaching as an adjunct does not mean a great deal in the broad scope of things. Such a person can still be very wrong about things. This I know personally if nothing else.
Byron, remember the admonitions I gave you a few months ago? Go back and read them again.
Brother Matt,
It appears nothing short of my recanting this article and backing up to say that I beg your forgiveness and the forgiveness of all of the rabid hyper-Calvinist out there will satisfy you. However, that will not happen. So, it appears that you and I are done discussing this matter.
Brother Sean,
Thanks for reading and I ask that you continue to read. Let me help you out on something. I know there are many comments and you may have missed it. I merely responded to Razorkiss when he stated that James White was employed by a SBC Seminary and Dr. Caner was not. I did a cursory search of James Whites blog and saw his courses that he listed as he was teaching. Of course the level of courses that he presents would make it appear that he is, if not a full-time prof, at least an adjunctive prof. at GGBTS. I very easily looked at GGBTS website to observe the listing of the faculty to look at his credentials. To my surprise he was not listed at either the full-time or adjunctive positions. I then went back to his website to view his credentials and do you know my surprise to find that his PhD is from an non-credited seminary. I went to the seminary website and found this explanation for their lack of accreditation. I am not questioning Columbia Evangelical Seminary’s,I am merely asking how one can be a prof at an accredited seminary when his PhD does not hold an accreditation. That is all I have done. James White is not a Prof at GGBTS. He may hold a class there every once in a while, but he is not employed by GGBTS as a Prof.
Chris S,
You apparently want to debate me on Twitter and everywhere else, using your own diatribe of something I have never said. One more time for the record. I have never said that James White did not teach at GGBTS. I asked how could a person that had no accredited PhD teach at a seminary whose accreditation demands the Prof have accredited degrees.
Matt,
If you choose not to believe I am a pastor and have pastoral duties that is your choice.
To everyone else,
It is overtly evident everyone is responding in this thread for one reason. They are upset that James White and Dr. Caner did not debate. Now James White has gotten what he wanted–a public call out to the Brothers Caner to debate him and he will shut up about these Muslim claims. Thus, we are no longer discussing this on this post. If you desire to discuss this, please feel free to do so on your own blogs.
Blessings,
Tim
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