2009 SBC Annual Meeting Review, Part 1
Posted byBefore I even made it home to Texas, I had begun to mull over my week in Louisville, Kentucky. I hope to spend a few posts in reflection over the week’s events, with a little bit of looking forward mixed in with my hindsight. To sum up at the outset, I think that we had a good annual meeting as Southern Baptists, and even I, an early critic of the GCR document, am hopeful about the outcome of the Reorganization Task Force. I am not giddy over it. I don’t think that “Years from now we’ll all look back and see that the SBC was saved forever from certain destruction in 2009,” and I don’t think that convention reorganization will make local churches better at pursuing the Great Commission, but I do think that we have a chance either to make the SBC worse or make the SBC better at this juncture, and I think that some of the folks serving on the Reorganization Task Force just might be able to accomplish the latter rather than the former. But now, to the details.
The dominant topic leading up to the meeting, the dominant topic in the hallways during the meeting, and the dominant topic in analysis after the fact has been the Great Commission Resurgence. Dr. Danny Akin of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary preached a sermon outlining the Great Commission Resurgence as a number of “axioms.” The folks over at SEBTS then launched a website for the movement. A number of signatories affixed their name to the statement, which went through some number of revisions as the number of signatures increased.
After the publication of the initial document, and with each revision, various Southern Baptists analyzed and opined about the document: on blogs (in no particular order: Trevin Wax, Nathan Finn, Marty Duren, Alan Cross, Micah Fries, and myself), in online streamed media, and in newspapers (SBTC Texan, Florida Baptist Witness). Axiom-by-axiom, people parsed the nuances of each and every word. Entity heads jousted in the denominational press over the implications of the document and the fate of the convention if we adopted it or rejected it.
And then it never even came to a vote.
The Vote that Never Happened
That’s right—and you might have missed it in coverage of the convention—the Southern Baptist Convention never deliberated the Great Commission Resurgence document. It did not appear as a resolution. No motion came affirming the document. The Great Commission Resurgence document, contrary to what you might have presumed, was nowhere on the agenda of SBC’09. And I’m OK with that.
All along I argued that restructuring should rise or fall on its own merits without piggybacking on a jingoistic affirmation of the Great Commission. And that’s what Southern Baptists did. We voted not on the “Great Commission Resurgence,” but on a motion from Dr. Mohler to the effect of Axiom IX:
That the Southern Baptist Convention, meeting June 23-24, 2009 in Louisville, Kentucky, authorize the President of the Southern Baptist Convention to appoint a Great Commission Task Force charged to bring a report and any recommendations to the Southern Baptist Convention, meeting in Orlando, Florida June 15-16, 2010, concerning how Southern Baptists can work more faithfully and effectively together in serving Christ through the Great Commission.
This is the kind of task force that Johnny Hunt mentioned as an implication of Axiom IX, which reads:
IX. A Commitment to a More Effective Convention Structure. We call upon all Southern Baptists, through our valued partnerships of SBC agencies, state conventions/institutions, and Baptist associations to evaluate our Convention structures and priorities so that we can maximize our energy and resources for the health of our local churches and the fulfillment of the Great Commission. This commitment recognizes the great strength of our partnership, which has been enabled by the Cooperative Program and enhanced by a belief that we can do more together than we can separately.
At the midpoint of the 20th century the Southern Baptist Convention was a convention characterized by impressive institutions, innovative programs, and strong loyalty from the churches. But the convention has too often failed to adapt its structure and programs to the changing culture. We are frequently aiming at a culture that went out of existence years ago, failing to understand how mid-20th century methods and strategies are not working in the 21st century.
Some of our convention structures at all levels need to be streamlined for more faithful stewardship of the funds entrusted to them. We must address with courage and action where there is overlap and duplication of ministries, and where poor stewardship is present. We are grateful for God’s gift of Cooperative Program dollars to both state and national entities. Both state and national entities must be wise stewards of these funds, and closely examine whether the allocation of Cooperative Program dollars genuinely contributes to Kingdom work or simply maintains the status quo. We are grateful for those churches and state conventions that are seeking to move more Cooperative Program dollars beyond their respective selves, and encourage this movement to continue and increase in the days ahead.
We must take steps toward simplifying our convention structures in an effort to streamline our structure, clarify our institutional identity, and maximize our resources for Great Commission priorities. We should ask hard questions about every aspect of our Convention structure and priorities and pray for God’s wisdom and blessing as we pursue wise answers to those questions. We must be willing to make needed changes for the good of our churches and the spread of the gospel. We believe that North American church planting, pioneer missions around the globe, and theological education are three priorities around which Southern Baptists will unite. Our Convention must be examined at every level to facilitate a more effective pursuit of these priorities.
The Great Commission, missions and theological education is the responsibility of the local church. As a convention of churches, we cooperate together to support theological education so that we can continually train competent shepherds who will lead churches through teaching, love and example, and who will see to it that the churches they lead are Great Commission churches that are promoting missions and advancing theological education. We are blessed as Southern Baptists to have such an avenue to serve the local church. Furthermore, we are grateful for the impact of the Conservative Resurgence that has given us seminaries committed to the inerrancy, infallibility, and the sufficiency of the Bible.
We believe the local church must be “ground zero” in a Great Commission Resurgence, and that our associations, state conventions and national agencies exist to serve and assist the churches in their divine assignment. We are convinced that as our people see our entities in this light, they will respond in even greater support of the Cooperative Program.
So, although the pre-Convention preparation included ten axioms, only one of those axioms came before the Southern Baptist Convention this week for consideration: Axiom IX. The task-force motion passed overwhelmingly. I, along with almost everyone else in the convention hall, lifted my ballot in affirmation of the motion. More on that later in this post.
In the aftermath of the vote, Southern Baptist reactions treated this Axiom IX motion as being the entirety of the Great Commission Resurgence. That’s unfortunate and misleading. “Tweets” on micro-blogging site Twitter heralded this annual meeting as one that generations to follow would mark as a historic milestone in Southern Baptist history. Ed Stetzer erroneously implied that the SBC had considered and affirmed Axiom V of the GCR document in the form of a resolution (NOTE: Ed has amended his post to remove the implication, because he’s the kind of guy who cares about accuracy even in something as small as this). Newspapers from across the SBC discussed the approval of the “Great Commission Resurgence” document.
I think that on the way into the Louisville Expo Center a great many people presumed that we would vote on the GCR document, and then on that way out a great many people presumed that we had voted on the GCR document. The SBC Annual Meeting is both a somewhat Byzantine process and an Augean collection of schedule items. Nobody stays for it all, and nobody understands and follows all that happens while they are actually in the hall. Some people left Louisville believing that we actually voted on the GCR document, even though we did not.
I don’t know whether the GCR document was withheld as an oversight, as a strategic move of some sort, or as a realization of Nathan Finn’s nightmare (see his post linked above) come true that the GCR is essentially nothing more than the reorganization.
My Affirmative Ballot
Even without the parts of the document that I liked best, I voted in favor of the Reorganization Task Force. One reason dominated all others in convincing me to vote as I did, and that reason can be expressed in two words: Johnny Hunt.
First, Johnny Hunt’s sermon on Tuesday morning was the most powerful sermon of the entire convention by far. What he preached is what I believe. He emphasized the local church. He emphasized personal ownership of the Great Commission. He emphasized a commitment to the Bible. He threw no stones. He never gave the impression that he was all jazzed up about buying round four of Jim Beam for the prospects at First Church of the Tavern (a.k.a. “methodological diversity”). Johnny Hunt’s sermon touched me, encouraged me, convicted me, motivated me, and won me over.
Second, Johnny Hunt is the president of this convention. He deserves some latitude to lead. He deserves, and has, my respect. I decided to trust Johnny Hunt, and my ballot reflected that trust.
Third, I was confident that Bro. Johnny would appoint a good task force, and he did not disappoint. I believe that the eighteen members of the task force will serve Southern Baptists well. If there are any individual members of that group who do not have my confidence, more of them do have it and therefore the task force as a whole has my trust and confidence. More diversity in the task force (geographic as well as demographic) would have been a plus, but we Southern Baptists are ultimately a people of quality, not quotas.
Fourth, I am confident that our SBC President will afford us all ample opportunity in Orlando next year to consider any specific recommendations from our task force. I predict that the following topics will arise within the task force, although I make no predictions about which of these, if any, will emerge:
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Changing the name of our convention away from “Southern Baptist Convention.”
This has already been mentioned. I will argue against the removal of the word “Southern” as unnecessary, but I will fight against the removal of the word “Baptist” with every fiber of my being. I will blog in the wee hours of the morning. I will stage sit-ins and compose ballads for the “movement.” I will chain myself to the podium and write letters from an Orlando jail. I will go to war.
But, that’s easy for me to say, because I don’t think I’ll have to. Even if a name change comes out of the task force, the word “Baptist” will still be intact. If it is not, the change will never pass on the convention floor. Even if it is, the change still may not pass. The convention has considered this matter before and it has never yet passed.
By the way, don’t misunderstand my insistence upon this point. There are a great many churches without the word “Baptist” in the name of their churches. Some of them actually are Baptist churches, even if they do not display the name. Furthermore, a great many churches with “Baptist” right out there on the sign are no longer Baptists in any meaningful sense. I would not go to war over whether somebody else’s church chooses to identify as Baptist in the name of their church.
But the removal of “Baptist” in the name of our convention is a different matter altogether. It will be advanced by those who believe that being Baptist is antithetical to carrying out the Great Commission. Such people must be opposed, because the opposite is true—biblical ecclesiology goes hand-in-hand with Great Commission effectiveness. However the local congregations are named, let us remain a Baptist convention of Baptist churches.
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Changing the definition of “Cooperative Program giving.”
There is a great deal of dissatisfaction with the Cooperative Program at present. Conservative churches in some state conventions yet untouched by the Conservative Resurgence are dissatisfied with a system that mandates their support of a state convention that they find abhorrent in order to receive credit for their support of a national convention that they embrace. As a freedom-loving people, they chafe under what is (if we will be honest with ourselves) the one point at which we Southern Baptists espouse connectionalism.
Yet the most remarkable “cooperative” of the Cooperative Program is not the intercongregational cooperation that it represents, but the cooperation among state and national entities that it has facilitated for nearly a century. Jiggering around with the Cooperative Program always poses the very real risk of a return to the societal method. Indeed, the infatuation of some proto-Antinomian Southern Baptists with groups like Acts 29 represents a flirtation with societal missions.
Convention missions is hard. In some respects it has lost its way, although it remains the best path forward for Southern Baptists. Let us all pray that we can rehabilitate the convention method rather than replace it with a return to the societal system that served us so poorly in the past.
The nonnegotiable mark of Convention missions is this: No system should be considered by Southern Baptists that counts designated giving as Cooperative Program giving. Local congregations should be able to choose whether they are supporting one state convention, two state conventions, or no state convention at all, but their Cooperative Program funds must go to the support of the SBC’s adopted budget, and not to individual entities in a manner designated by the churches. Churches are autonomous and should have the right to support entities however they desire, but churches that do not support the SBC’s adopted budget should not be acknowledged in the same manner as those who do.
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Decentralizing power away from the Executive Committee.
If I wanted to usurp control of the Southern Baptist Convention away from the churches, this is what I would do: I would create an oligarchy to make the major decisions for the Southern Baptist Convention, and then, while that oligarchy met to do the real work of the convention, I would plan a conference for the pastors to keep them occupied with preaching and singing while the strategic votes were taking place.
The Executive Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention is not quite that caricature, but neither is it entirely something else. Morris Chapman has too much power in the Southern Baptist Convention. His “fight or flight” reaction at the potential loss of his power was on clear display Tuesday morning at the convention meeting. He lashed out against people confident in Baptist distinctives. He lashed out against culture-chasing ecumenists. He lashed out against Calvinists. One SBC observer at the back of the hall (privately) said it best: “We’ve now found the basis for real unity in the Southern Baptist Convention—Morris hates us all the same.” It was a hyperbolic statement, but one that captured the mood of the convention floor after the Executive Committee report.
Of course, Morris Chapman doesn’t really hate the people of the SBC. But he has become enriched and empowered by a system that continually consolidates more and more power at his well-appointed desk. The system that has served him so well is now in jeopardy, and he is behaving the way that people behave when they feel threatened.
Sole membership was a mistake. I voted in favor of it at the time, because I had no desire for SBC entities ever to Baylor our convention. But the price of protection against potentially renegade entities has been a very un-Baptist consolidation of power. This task force will have failed miserably if it does not bring back to us some method for undoing this dangerous mistake that we have made.
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Abolishing the North American Mission Board.
I have already blogged elsewhere about this potential action, and I will neither belabor the point nor lengthen this post by adding any further verbiage on this topic.
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Reducing our present number of seminaries.
Every few years someone tabulates the ratio of dollars of real estate equity to FTEs at Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary and wonders whether we would be better served by selling off the Mill Valley campus and investing the derived resources in theological education elsewhere.
Good question.
Expect the committee to consider the closing of Golden Gate as well as Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. This is one option that could realistically come to the floor of the convention for a vote.
We need to think carefully before we take this action. Any sort of a retreat from the areas most in need of our church planting resources should be balanced by deliberate efforts to shape our system of theological education toward the church planting needs of our own continent. Perhaps the way forward could build upon the approach adopted by Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary in Memphis, TN. The folks at MABTS have opened a satellite campus in Schenectady, NY. The campus has become a hub for church planting in the upper Hudson Valley.
Perhaps Southern Baptists should explore the retention of seminaries with main campuses in our regions of greatest strength, but then launch satellite campuses of those seminaries deep into pioneer territory. Students who agree to attend these satellite campuses while planting convictionally Baptist churches in those pioneer areas should receive free tuition courtesy of whatever Southern Baptist entity is charged with North American church planting. That entity should also pay for these students to attend occasional week-long classes on the main campuses of the seminaries. Administrative payrolls at the satellite campus should be minimal or non-existent.
If such a system could be accomplished without negating the fiscal advantages of eliminating two of our seminaries, then Southern Baptists should give the matter their consideration. However, we may find that our present system is actually more efficient fiscally. I would like to see hard numbers on this one before coming to any conclusion. But I would be opposed to any action in this regard that would represent a retreat back into our SBC “shell” when we should be working all the harder to penetrate pioneer areas with the gospel.
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Overturning Resolution #5 from SBC 2006.
We heard a great deal of floor action this year against Acts 29. This unrest from Southern Baptists toward Acts 29 is primarily addressed against their libertinism toward deviant sex and alcohol. Expect the task force to hear from those trying to push Southern Baptists away from our historic stance against Demon Rum and into the arms of Anheuser Busch.
I have hopes that this effort, if made, will not survive the committee process. Antinomian forces in the SBC only succeed if they can cloak pro-alcohol policies in code-language or obfuscating phrases. When Southern Baptists get an unobscured opportunity to vote on the question of alcohol, they do what they did in 2006, just three years ago. Since the convention is on the record for this question so recently and so firmly, we have reason to hope that the Acts 29 position will remain out-of-bounds for SBC entities.
Obviously, not all of these ideas will survive the committee. Also, since my crystal ball has a crack or two in it, it is likely that I will not bat 1000…that not all 7 of these ideas will be discussed by the task force. Some ideas will likely emerge that I had not considered.
Fortunately for Southern Baptists, we have some good people on the task force who will provide needed wisdom for this day. Also, we messengers will have the final word on whatever should take place. With that fact in mind, I join with thousands of other Southern Baptists in praying fervently for our task force and our convention in the days ahead.



36 Comments
June 30th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
Hey, are yall opening SBC Today up for comments once again? or, did I sneak in here somehow, accidently?
David
June 30th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Bart,
I have no doubt that most of the issues you listed will come into play as issues that will be addressed. My hope is that a minimum amount of time will be spent on most of these questions. I don’t know enough about the economics of our seminaries to know if they should be consolidated or not. The concept you suggested is intriguing. What I do hope that they will focus on is not how to cut the pie differently, but how to make the pie bigger. Right now, we have lots of young folks who want SBC services (Seminaries, Imb, NAmb) but don’t want to pay for them (giving through cp and Lottie moon). If they don’t think that they are helped by state conventions then maybe they ought to be able to bypass them, I don’t know. The best I can hope for out of this movement is a renewed emphasis on church starting and a renewed urgency in cp giving. If anyone has the network to make this happen among the non antinomian young preachers, it is preacher Johnny.
June 30th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
David,
It is no oversight. Comments are open.
June 30th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Tim B,
I agree that we need to find a renewed passion for the Cooperative Program. “Bigger Pie” could become our slogan. Maybe the current President of the United States could do a campaign piece for us, talking about his love for pie.
June 30th, 2009 at 5:27 pm
Bart, this was a very good and insightful post, especially good for one not in attendance (me this year!). Even before the convention, I had questions about the GCR. To me, it still seems very mysterious.
I am on Twitter and followed #SBC2009 during the convention (not as my main source of info though!) to see what was happening. Most people were upset with Chapman and his slam on the Reformed (mostly Calvinists) and the people who did not like the questioning of Acts 29 (mostly Calvinists). There was a night/day buzz about the convention. On day 1, the SBC was a sinking, irrelevant ship. On day 2 (after GCR vote), it was the greatest day in SBC history. What gives? Was it that big of a deal? I wasn’t there so I am truly wondering.
Also, if reorganization is already on their mind before the convention, then why not let us know where we need restructure and give us some suggestions? They must already have them and the ones that do are probably on the Task Force.
I would have to agree with your statement: “One reason dominated all others in convincing me to vote as I did, and that reason can be expressed in two words: Johnny Hunt.” I have great respect for Johnny Hunt, and I know he is not looking for it, but most people do not seem to give him credit for the GCR. From Twitter and blogs you would think Danny Akin (who is still getting buzz about his answer to the Acts 29 questions) is the hero of the SBC with Al Mohler coming in a close second. Most people seem to be writing about his leadership, but it is only after a mentioning of the two previous (not you of course). So it really begs the question, who IS leading?
June 30th, 2009 at 8:44 pm
Bart,
I found your essay to be agreeable with much of what I think. We stand firm on #1. If we are Baptist, then we should not be ashamed to make it known. #2 I think I like how you have formed a middle ground between the current definition of CP giving and the other extreme of giving to whichever entity a church desires. If you are saying that giving directly to the EC (and not to an entity) counts as CP giving, then I find that compromise interesting. #3 might be the most dead-on analysis of anything you have ever written. #4 I don’t know what you said before so i wont’ comment on what you didn’t say here. #5 I’m not sure what to think about this so I’ll refrain from making a statement that is not well-thought out. #6 It is at this point that I must deviate with your analysis. Up to here, you had been civil and (from my view) basically accurate. However, your characterization of Acts29 (or at least those in favor of such an organization) as antinomian is an unfair accusation. Have you ever heard Driscoll, or anyone in Acts29 say “Oh, live however you wish. God doesn’t care about your obedience, your holiness.”? They are by no means advocating antinomianism, but simply not adhering to certain regulations that those of a more conservative/fundamentalistic (not meant to be derogatory) persuasion are apt to follow. If you have spent any time listening to Driscoll preach on how Acts 29 relates to various religious organizations, you will know that while he disagrees with the SBC position on alcohol, he expects SBC sponsored Acts29 planters to respect/obey the covenant they signed with NAMB/State Conventions. At least respect him for that. And finally, as a historian, i would have hoped you would have been a bit more fair with the historical record of Southern Baptists and alcohol. There is certainly a clear record that many in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries allowed (and often favored) alcohol. Why, even in the midst of Prohibition, Southern Baptists came together in Memphis to affirm that (so called Demon) wine should be used in communion, even though the (now highly esteemed) Dr. Welch had formulated grape juice by 1869.
P.S. I’m glad to see SBCToday has finally opened comments. A modicum of credibility may have just entered the room (no level of meanness intended; isn’t this what we would say when a privately published journal opened itself up to peer-review?)
June 30th, 2009 at 10:12 pm
Bart,
We may not agree at every turn on your analysis, but this is helpful. I did not attend but observed via the live feed. I did not miss too much. One irony is the decidedly different response you and Robin have given as to the tone and effect of the meeting over against a number of others I have read. This is to be expected. And, I do not draw it out to suggest you got it wrong. Instead it reflects differing positions that seem to run along pre-existing ideological divides.
I will agree with Jason that you have offered some caricatures – a move you generally try to avoid except when drawing down your own distinctions between what I will term your vision of “truly” Baptists and Baptists. (To borrow from the interesting blogosphere division between the Reformed and the Truly Reformed.)
Maybe the best point you have made regards the vote that wasn’t. I confess to missing this nuance of the meeting and am now musing over such a reality. I too think a semantic game may well have broken out with “Great Commission” as the bantered about euphemism for “who is in and who is out” of the movement. We agree on this point from different vantage points but should like take solace that as Baptist there is something we may agreeably disagree over or we will forever carry the moniker, “fighting Baptists.”
June 30th, 2009 at 10:12 pm
Props to you guys for opening comments again. I hope it stays.
Bart,
IMHO, the only item you listed that I think has a snowball’s chance is number 2. No way any of the others appear with the makeup of the Task Force in its current form.
Les
June 30th, 2009 at 11:27 pm
Good GCR analysis!
However, rather than suggesting an adoption of the extension model supported by MABTS (a great non-CP Seminary by the way), you might take a closer look at the structure of GGBTS. They began with a similar “extension” approach back in the 70’s and then evolved into a fully accredited, multi-campus system. Those campuses now serve as proven regional “church planting hubs” among some of the most strategic populations in the West. Eliminate GGBTS??? Unthinkable!!!
Oliver
July 1st, 2009 at 10:31 am
I would like to put in a pre-publication DVD order for SBC Ballads by Bart Barber.
David R. Brumbelow
July 1st, 2009 at 10:59 am
There are times that I have disagreed with you–actually a lot of times–although I have tried to disagree with your position rather than with you. But I believe in being fair, so I must give you a compliment today.
This is a very clear commentary on what went on, and indeed it clarifies some things for me. Thank-you.
It is consistent with what I said to a number of folks in the church I serve, that of all the articles or axioms, whatever, in the document, there was only one which mandates action at the Convention level, and thus it will be the one that gets all the atention, namely Article IX. The rest, as you put, is little (if any) more than a “jingoistic affirmation of the Great Commission.”
Renaming the Convention does not bother me, especially the “Southern” part. It is a detriment outside the South (and maybe the southwest). However, I very much doubt that it would pass.
You mention “Conservative churches in some state conventions yet untouched by the Conservative Resurgence are dissatisfied with a system that mandates their support of a state convention that they find abhorrent in order to receive credit for their support of a national convention that they embrace.” Virtually the opposite is also true; for instance our church designates its giving to missions (the IMB & NAMB) because of disagreements with the direction of the seminaries and convention at large. If the churches you point out have their designated gifts counted as CP, so should ours. Consequently, I agree with you that “No system should be considered by Southern Baptists that counts designated giving as Cooperative Program giving.” What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
I don’t know about the EC, although, like you, I agree that it has become a power player in a way beyond what was originally intended for it. That something should be done with NAMB is valid too, and I think it requires something radical. And I agree with you that we should beware of any “sort of a retreat from the areas most in need of our church planting resources should be balanced by deliberate efforts to shape our system of theological education toward the church planting needs of our own continent,” least we be found penny-wise and pound foolish. On the other hand, I am concerned that closing GGBTS and MABTS and allowing others seminaries (presumably SEBTS, SWBTS, and SBTS) to pick up the slack by expanding with regional satellite campuses might stiffle “local” voices that better understand local situations, needs, and opportunities. It might be more “efficient” to eleminate all state universities and establish a “University of the United States” with satellite campuses in every state too, but that would eleminate the specialities that each university has in favor of a uniform blandness.
The only point at which I am significantly in disagreement with you is your point #6. And on that one, I am not in favor of “demon rum” as you put it, but rather I am opposed to characterizing a “thing” as sinful, rather than the way the thing is used or misused. As someone else has already said, Baptists have not “always” been opposed to all use of beverage alcohol, but we came to oppose it because of its misuse and the societal problems that its misuse caused. Unfortunantly, in an effort to “be Biblical in all we say and do,” we carried our opposition farther than the Bible says–at least IMHO.
Finally–thanks for opening the comments again. Blessings!
John Fariss
July 1st, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Paul S,
Johnny Hunt made the appointments—I think his fingerprints are all over them. I think that Hunt is behind the wheel, although I am not implying that there is any major difference between Hunt and Akin regarding the direction of the Reorganization Task Force.
July 1st, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Jason,
Thanks for reading and commenting! You are reading me correctly on #2. I prefer that a church support a state convention through that state convention’s adopted budget, but I’m not sure that it is wise or just for the SBC to wade off into the middle of the relationship between a local church and its state convention. On #6, my analysis of Acts 29 has evoked multiple comments and merits a comment all unto itself on my part. Thanks for those areas of agreement, which I have not belabored in my response beyond showing my gratitude.
July 1st, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Todd,
Thanks for opining here. I appreciate your contribution to the discussion. I confess that, although I had hoped to be among the earliest people insightful enough to note the absence of the actual GCR document from the annual meeting, the folks over at the Florida Baptist Witness beat me to the punch.
I don’t know that the absence is worthy of too much musing—certainly it is not the major event to take away from Louisville. I just found it interesting, as apparently you do.
Your Truly Baptist Friend,
Bart
July 1st, 2009 at 1:41 pm
Les,
Personally, I give better odds to #3 than to #2 for eventual passage on the convention floor. But we’ll see. As to mere passage by the committee, I’ll go ahead and stick my neck out here—item #1 is a slam dunk. Mark my words: That one WILL come out of the committee.
If any of these were a slam dunk to actually pass the convention, their various proponents would already have accomplished them years ago. The remarkable thing about this list is that none of it is new at all.
July 1st, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Oliver,
I expressed my own reticence toward the whole process, indicating that we may very well find our present system to make more fiscal sense. I know that GGBTS and MWBTS will have many champions, as I would be for SWBTS. I both understand and admire that.
The reason that many would offer for closing those two schools is the simple proposal that the SBC produces enough students for four seminaries and not for two. Those two will be considered for the chopping block simply because they are the smallest, are they not? GGBTS also sits on considerable assets, and some will argue that it is poor stewardship to allocate such rich assets to the ministry preparation of so few students.
As for me, as I have said above, I would want to see hard numbers before arriving at a conclusion on this matter. That sentence necessarily implies that I have not arrived at any sort of a conclusion on this matter.
So, Oliver, the Internet is yours to persuade me and the other legions of undecided should this question actually emerge from the committee.
July 1st, 2009 at 1:49 pm
David
:
Where have all the Baptists gone?
Long time passing.
Where have all the Baptists gone?
Long time ago.
Where have all the Baptists gone?
When the SBC went to Hooters, they all went home.
When will they ever learn?
When will they ever learn?
I’m here all week, folks.
July 1st, 2009 at 1:53 pm
John Fariss,
Thanks for the complimentary comment. I value your participation here, even (especially) if we do not always agree. It is a sign of health if we can discourse in our disagreement. It is a sign of greater health if I triumph in that discourse.
(Just me being a smart-aleck)
July 1st, 2009 at 1:53 pm
You know, this ballad thing could generate a whole new thread!
July 1st, 2009 at 2:10 pm
Perhaps even a whole new blog…
July 1st, 2009 at 2:40 pm
To answer a number of you regarding my use of “antinomian” and “proto-antinomian” in this thread:
1. The Acts 29 thing involves an opinion about alcohol, but also involves other matters as well. It is not a question of one sin; it is a question of several sins, and therefore a question about attitudes toward sin in general.
2. With specific regard to the alcohol thing, even a great number of moderationists will acknowledge that church in a tavern with drinking encouraged is something in an entirely other category than a guy who has a small glass of wine at night—is something other than moderation.
3. I’m convinced that we need to take a closer look at the recent ad campaign reminding us that “Buzzed Driving is Drunk Driving.” Likewise, Buzzed Living is Drunk Living, and we would do well to take heed to that message.
4. I confess that I’m searching for a better word than “Antinomian” and will replace it when I have found one. The person who will say that Jesus Christ commands fellatio is clearly not an Antinomian. Such a person believes that Jesus Christ has standards for behavior that are normative and binding upon the believer; they just happen to be standards that are abhorrent and foreign to the Bible as well as to 2000 years of Christianity. Antinomian may be a better descriptor of those who witness such behavior and then make themselves apologists for it.
July 1st, 2009 at 2:59 pm
I should also mention, since I’ve brought up the Scotland thing, that although Driscoll has entered into a conversation about whether saying such things from the pulpit in Scotland was appropriate or wise, I do not find anywhere his statement that, upon further consideration, he no longer believes that Jesus Christ commands wives to perform oral sex upon their husbands.
July 1st, 2009 at 3:20 pm
Bart,
Your summary was well written and your thoguhts stimulating. You have actually raised more detailed questions that I am sure will be debated by the GCR Task Force.
Interesting times we live in and interesting times we will live in!
July 1st, 2009 at 4:30 pm
Bart,
I hunger for the SBC to be even more committed to the Great Commission than ever before in our history. I really believe the “world stage” is set for a true and “biblical Great Commission Resurgence.”
Maybe just a “surge” in seeking to live holy before a just and righteous God and tell the Good Story about Jesus Christ the Son of God would greatly help us to be of greater value in Kingdom building in these “latter days.”
I am praying for the Task Force. I kinda wish there would be some more people added to it, maybe just a little greater diversity.
(By “diversity” I mean within the ranks of conservative, Bible believing, born-again, tough-minded, true Southern Baptist Christians.)
I am sure Dr. Hunt could add a few more if he desired. I don’t think the motion presented a limit to the number he could appoint.
Anyway, Bart, I am praying for something great to come out of all of this that we have experienced in the last few years. And I am truly thankful to the Lord for the opportunity to meet and get to know many strong Christ-Followers in the last few years. That has certainly given my soul hope for the future of the SBC.
cb
July 1st, 2009 at 5:01 pm
Bart,
Thanks for your insights. I must say that I agree with your assessment of the Executive Committee. Having fought the sole membership battle as a trustee of one of our seminaries, I have seen first-hand the power plays of the Executive Committee. I do think it is time for Southern Baptists to reconsider the role the EC plays in the life of our convention.
Kelly Randolph
July 1st, 2009 at 5:27 pm
You said, “It is a sign of greater health if I triumph in that discourse.” Hey, if you weren’t passionate about what you believe, what use it is? “I believe so-and-so, and I’m moderate about it”? I feel the same way.
)
John
July 1st, 2009 at 6:08 pm
“Sole membership was a mistake. I voted in favor of it at the time, because I had no desire for SBC entities ever to Baylor our convention. But the price of protection against potentially renegade entities has been a very un-Baptist consolidation of power.”
I agree with Kelly above. Do you think Dr. Kelley and the others at NOBTS in any way feel vindicated by the fears the EC’s strong opinions at this year’s convention have raised? A few years ago, they were liberals b/c of their stance against sole membership. Now they seem just a little more Baptist.
July 1st, 2009 at 6:35 pm
Kelly & James,
First off, allow me to make it completely plain that I NEVER entertained the idea that Kelley and the folks at NOBTS were “liberals.” To tell you the truth, at the time of those votes, it really confused me that they were opposing the sole membership recommendation. I presumed that they were concerned about some vagary of Louisiana law, which we all know was written on Mars in an obscure dialect of Sanskrit.
Now, I think that they have every reason to feel vindicated. I know I wish that I had voted differently.
July 1st, 2009 at 8:41 pm
I thought Dr. Kelley and the lawyers were emphasizing the Napoleonic Law angle too much. The main point in his paper was “This is not Baptist.”
July 2nd, 2009 at 11:28 am
Bart,
I was listening to one of Driscoll’s sermons that was preached at a conference at Bethleham Baptist sometime last fall. He didn’t specifically mention the events of Scotland, but he did (as best I remember) relate a story about making some statements that he later regretted and, after taking Piper’s advice, he removed the sermon off the internet. I don’t know if he ever apologized publicly, but I don’t think that’s the point of disagreement you have with him.
Personally, I have no knowledge of that sermon, but you have claimed that he made a statement that wives are required to perform oral sex and I have no reason to believe you have misstated Driscoll’s statement. However, I did listen to his sermon series on the Song of Songs and I can tell you he never said anything remotely like that in his own church. What he did say was that anything between a husband and a wife is acceptable so long as both are comfortable and one is not forced to do something unwillingly to the other. He made this point over and over through the series, which (I believe) might alleviate your concern in this matter. It does, though, bring up another concern, which is that he finds anal sex permissible. I wholeheartedly disagree with him on this point. I find it to be forbidden in the OT, as well as a cursory knowledge of design and anatomy. One of the better non-Scriptural arguments we put forth against homosexuality is rendered void if anal sex is permissible.
However, I pose the following question. Which is more detrimental to the potential growth of God’s kingdom: a man who advocates/permits anal sex, or a denomination who refuses to partner with this man (and his organization) for the sharing of resources to plant churches?
July 2nd, 2009 at 5:10 pm
I am aware of Driscoll’s retractions on this matter. He seems to have come to agreement that he should not be talking about such things in a public forum like that. The topic of his apologies have been, if you will, over the matter of discerning what to say when. The status of things now is that Driscoll has stated that Jesus Christ commands wives to perform oral sex upon their husbands, but now he has conceded that he should be more careful about SAYING such things. It still appears to be his theological position, now unstated for reasons of civility and public perception, that Jesus Christ does command wives to perform oral sex upon their husbands. He has never stated that the conclusion was wrong nor that he has come to a different hermeneutic of that passage.
To answer your question, I think that the SBC is not detrimental at all to the potential growth of God’s kingdom by not partnering with Acts 29. Apparently, Danny Akin shares my position, since he has pointedly reminded the Southern Baptist Convention multiple times that SEBTS is not partnered with Acts 29 or Mark Driscoll. The Southern Baptist Convention is not capable of partnering with everyone in the world, nor is it under obligation to do so. With limited resources, we are all in the business of trying to choose wisely how to invest our time, energy, and possessions in the Great Commission. One need not attack Mark Driscoll in order to note that he simply is nowhere near the top of the list of wise investments in that regard.
July 2nd, 2009 at 5:14 pm
In other words, if I were a wealthy bedfast invalid and the only church in the world was Mars Hill, I would gladly write them a check to share the gospel in their peculiar and imperfect manner. However, if you give me a list of ministry opportunities including a thousand people who don’t use poor language from the pulpit, don’t advocate sodomy, don’t claim that any woman who hasn’t performed oral sex on her husband is in sin, and don’t plant “grab a brew, share your view” churches in taverns, and also proclaim the same gospel to lost people, then I’ll choose each of those thousand opportunities before I choose Mars Hill. It is a matter of there being so many other, better, available options.
July 3rd, 2009 at 9:46 am
Bart: Do you really think #6 could even remotely be on the agenda? Has the SBC ever overturned a resolution? I’m a moderationist and in the microscopic chance that I served on the committee, it wouldn’t cross my mind to bring it up. Obviously I would prefer that the convention stop making resolutions such as these, but I hardly think overturning that resolution could possibly positively impact a GCR.
Are there people on the committee who you think would introduce something like this?
July 15th, 2009 at 7:06 pm
Bart,
I was reading over news piece on the motions which were shot down for various reasons this year. One was a motion to alter the wording of the SBC stance on alcohol use, thereby making a distinction between drinking and drunkenness. The article said that Hunt declared the motion out of order on Render’s counsel that the motion would require the amendment of a standing resolution (#5 of 2006, I presume?). What process would be required in order for such an amendment to take place?
Thanks,
Mike
July 15th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
I also wondered if, in your opinion, some motions (especially those which represent minority views) are occasionally declared out of order as a result of intense scrutiny born of bias. And at the same time, other motions are allowed to pass for consideration although they may “resemble a resolution.” I have never attended an annual meeting and I am curious (and admittedly suspicious) concerning the ability of a few individuals to manipulate what issues are given consideration.
thanks again,
mike
September 10th, 2009 at 9:57 am
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