Today we’re honored to share with you a post written by our good friend David Worley. Known affectionately around the SBC blog world as “volfan007,” David is the pastor of the Bethel Baptist Church in Greenfield, Tennessee, where he’s served for 3 years. His wife’s name is Sherrie, and they have three children: Ben, Ginger, and Cody. David has pastored Churches in Tennessee and Mississippi. He is a graduate of the University of Tennessee at Martin, and the Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary in Memphis, Tennessee.
I’m fully convinced that some people in the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) in our day are absolutely afraid of not being big. Some SBC people are absolutely scared of declining membership. I’ve been saying for years that some of the leading people of the SBC are more interested in the 3 “B’s”…Baptisms, Budgets, and Butts (or “backsides,” for those with more sensitive ears), than with faithfulness and worship and sound theology. All they’ve cared about for years is how many baptisms did your church have? How big is your budget? Have your finances grown? And, how many backsides are sitting in your pews? Attendance at your church? How many do you have? How many did you have when you first got there? How many are coming now? How much have you grown?
The churches that had a lot of these three “B’s” were featured in the missions magazines. They were given plaques at associational meetings. Their pastors were asked to speak at conferences. The pastors of these churches were esteemed highly as “successful” pastors of “good” churches. While faithful, Pastor Kickim Andknockimdown, who faithfully preaches the Word three times a week, and who tries to witness to people, is looked upon as “unsuccessful,” and his church is “bad,” because they didn’t have but 11 baptisms last year. It doesnt matter that he’s serving in Alligator, Mississippi, where they only have one red light, and the Charismatic Church is extremely strong and influential in that area. For years in the SBC, you’d never have heard of ole R. U. Saved, who pastored small churches across Louisiana and Texas and Arkansas. I mean, he faithfully preached the Gospel, and stood for truth and right, and faithfully ministered to his people, even when they were being mean and ornery about stupid and silly things; but he was never in a fast growing, metropolitan area. He never had a “killer” music/worship leader, nor did he have the manpower to have “Singing Christmas Trees.” But, he was just as faithful a pastor as the pastors of the fast growing, “big,” churches. But, he was never featured in “Missions Magazine,” nor in “Successful Churches and the Successful Pastors of these Great Churches” magazine. He never spoke at the SBC Pastor’s Conference.
So now, fear is spreading over the SBC about the decline in the three “B’s.” And, in their desperation to “grow,” in thier desperation to have big numbers in the three “B’s,” they are willing to “emerge.” In thier attempt to be “cool” again, they are grasping for straws to hold them up; to keep them from falling down the long, dark tunnel of “decline.” So, we’ve got to become more hip, more “with it.” After all, we’re losing the younger crowd, if we don’t drink alcohol and if we insist that baptism is by immersion only. We’ll lose the younger crowd if we stress sound doctrine and good theology. I mean, we can’t let the three “B’s” keep going on their downward turn. We must be able to say to everyone that Southern Baptists have the most baptisms, even if some are children under the age of 4, or a lot of them are re-baptisms due to a lack of counseling with people who are having doubts. We must be able to say that our offerings are setting records. Oh, the horror of saying that we didn’t reach our goals this year, or that the CP slightly dipped below last year. We must be able to say that attendance is greater in SBC Churches, than in any other denomination. So, if we have to have dog and pony shows to get a crowd, let’s do it. If we have to learn from Joel Osteen and Robert Schuler, then let’s do it. Because, after all, big crowds feed our egos and make us feel good; that we’ve done a good job; that we’re relevant to today’s society. Oh no, we can’t have small crowds. We must have huge crowds. No matter what we have to do to get them there.
My friends, it’s a shame that panic seems to be taking over some of the leaders of the SBC during this time. I really don’t think that we should panic just because the giving may be down. After all, we’re going through some tough financial times in our economy. Also, I really don’t think that we should panic, and start grabbing for new programs, or new music, or toss aside sound doctrine, just because our numbers may be off. Sometimes you have to trim a tree to get it to bear more fruit. And maybe we need to have more Southern Baptist pastors start preaching and teaching God’s Word, and stand on the truths of it, so that the people in the pews can grow and be well fed. Then, they’ll start to reproduce, just like well fed, “taken care of ” sheep will reproduce. And, the worldly, lost crowd will see a difference in Christians. They’ll realize that we have something that they don’t have. And, the growth that churches experience will be real, genuine growth; rather than fleshly, worldly attempts at filling up pews. The growth will be the working of God in the hearts and lives of people, rather than Madison Avenue advertising tricks to get people to “come to church.”
But, we don’t need to panic. God is still God. He is sovereign, and he is working His will and purposes in our world. And, our responsibility is to faithfully live for Him. And, as we faithfully worship and preach and witness and give, then leave the results to Him. Instead of panicking, we need to trust. Instead of grabbing for straws, we need to trust. Instead of letting fear and panic dictate what we do, we need to simply trust; and our trust, of course, should be in God.
Great article. Jesus said He would build His Church. The Gospel has not changed. The Kingdom will still advance from the size of a mustard seed to the size of a tree. The teaching of the apostles is not ours to change but ours to guard and treasure. I pray the decline in the three b’s leads to an emphasis on what really matters; faithfulness to the Gospel and promoting Gospel growth. We have been a man-centered denomination for too long and our pride has gone before our fall…
Well said, Agent Vol!
…especially, “But, we don’t need to panic. God is still God. He is sovereign, and he is working His will and purposes in our world. And, our responsibility is to faithfully live for Him.”
Sola Gratia.
David, you wrote, “So now, fear is spreading over the SBC about the decline in the three “B’s.” And, in their desperation to “grow,” in thier desperation to have big numbers in the three “B’s,” they are willing to “emerge.” In thier attempt to be “cool” again, they are grasping for straws to hold them up; to keep them from falling down the long, dark tunnel of “decline.” So, we’ve got to become more hip, more “with it.” After all, we’re losing the younger crowd, if we don’t drink alcohol and if we insist that baptism is by immersion only. We’ll lose the younger crowd if we stress sound doctrine and good theology.”
I agree with most of what you wrote. But I don’t know if I’m reading you rightly on this part. Are you suggesting that the “missional” talk is really a dumbing down of conviction in order to regain numbers? Do you leave any room for those who believe they’re just trying to be biblical? It seems to me there are some very doctrinally astute “emerging” types that aren’t compromising Scripture in order to be hip. They’re just hip and can’t help it. What do you think?
Volfan, Some ministers may be invisible to some on this earth, but they will never be invisible to Jesus. He looks at the heart–not at the numbers. After all, we sow, we water–God gives the increase. My hubby and I never much worried about what rewards or acknowledgments were delivered to others or ourselves. We just want to hear our Savior say, “Well done, my good and faithful servant.” selahV
Wes,
I love the “pic” of me. That’s great! Man, you are a creative genius, and if you were better looking I’d kiss you on the cheek for that.
Bill,
Thanks.
Scott,
I thought you’d like that part. :)
Darby,
If someone is singing off of bongo drums and a flute, and they meet in a coffee shop for worship, and they have the “bed head” look; while at the same time, they hold to sound doctrine and preach the Bible….then hallelujah! Go for it! If you live in the mountains of TN, and your worship is accompanied by banjos and fiddles and dulcimers and mandolin’s, and you wear overalls to Church..even the preacher….yet, you preach sound doctrine and hold to the sound teaching of the Word of God; then hallelujah! Praise God! I’d love to come to your Church, BTW.
But, if someone out there is preaching “10 Steps to Happiness,” or “Five Steps to Making New Friends,” or “God is ok, you are ok, and I’m ok,” in order to reach a crowd; then there’s a serious problem there. Or, if they meet in a bar and serve liquor while singing, “Shout to the Lord,” and then have the Pastor do creative dance in a tutu as the sermon; then there’s big problems. If they all light candles, and share how God told them this, and God spoke thru an angel to me last night, and then end the service with a big, group hug; then we have problems. Or, if some ole boy gets up to preach, but he wont ever preach on hell, sin, or judgement; and he allows people to join his Church, who’s baptism was done by sprinkling, or pouring; and he allows the ordination of women as Ministers, because he doesnt want to offend the feminist crowd; then we have major problems. Or, if we follow the lead of Osteen and Schuler, and some of the other fellas like them, just to have a crowd; then we have problems.
Now, Darby, do you think that some of the leaders of the SBC are panicking? Are they getting into panic mode about the decline in the three B’s? Are they willing to do whatever and try whatever in order to have bigger crowds, more money, more baptisms? I think that we’re seeing that. Do you?
David
David,
While I’d love to claim credit, it’s Scott who deserves the kiss (thank goodness). I just had an idea, but he improved upon it and put it together. So kiss him, will you?
:)
Alright, I’ll give both of yall a big ole hug and kiss. :)
Wes, is there anyway that I can put that logo on the place where my pic goes when writing comments? And, more importantly, is there anyway that you can help me do it?
David
Vol,
While you do all this kissin’ please remember all that logo is, is UT as seen through the tube of a Redfield Wide angle scope, mounted atop a .50 caliber Barrett Sniper Rifle being held by Nick Saban.
:-)
cb
CB,
Satan, err, Saban cant shoot straight. He doesnt know how to squint.
:)
David
Selah,
Amen. May your tribe increase.
David
David,
First, I think what you wrote about the bed heads and bongos vs. the fiddle-playing preacher is as missional as one can get. Very well said. Some think the SBC is behind the curve on missional thinking. Let me give you the flipside. I have great respect for ACTS 29 network and what God is doing through them. That said, I find it ironic that they’re all saying and doing the same things wherever they go. Their websites and catchphrases look like carbon copies. The mountains of TN is not downtown Seattle or NYC. So it seems the most missional of folks still fall into the trap of transplanting one culture into another whether it fits or not.
Second, I found out a long time ago that the SBC leaders are worried about things I’ve never worried about. So I can’t say with confidence what they’re worried about. It does seem that the goal of many is to see how many people we can get gathered together at one time instead of transforming the culture through the gospel. I agree that going down roads that are popular with a certain culture is wrong when it conflicts with Scripture. Paul confronted cultural excesses as much as he cooperated with them.
Brother Darby,
You said; I have great respect for ACTS 29 network and what God is doing through them. That said, I find it ironic that they’re all saying and doing the same things wherever they go. Their websites and catchphrases look like carbon copies. The mountains of TN is not downtown Seattle or NYC. So it seems the most missional of folks still fall into the trap of transplanting one culture into another whether it fits or not.
I agree. It does seem odd that we are told to transform culture, not re-define culture. Also, have you noticed the lack of international transformation in the Acts 29 network and other “missional” groups?
Blessings,
Tim
Darby,
What Tim said.
David
Wes and Scott
I love the logo. Worley should put that on all his replies.
David
Good stuff my man.
Robin,
Thanks, my Brother from another mother.
David
David,
Agree 100%. No need to panic, every need to pray!
I too like the logo. For a while I wondered why you chose volfan007. Then I watched the Vols play last year; let’s just say I understand why you went undercover. :)
Now Joe….
:)
David
PS. Wait til next year.
“Also, have you noticed the lack of international transformation in the Acts 29 network and other “missional” groups?”
Tim,
I haven’t really considered it. I would guess it’s not really their immediate goal, and they’re just moving as they go. I’ve heard of some overseas works, and I’m sure there’s been some trickle outward at any rate.
Nothing new here.
Small equal faithfulness and genuine doctrine.
Large equal compromise and heterodoxy.
Typical.
Rick,
Why do say typical? And, where did I say that small equals faithfulness and genuine doctrine, and large equals compromise and heterodoxy? I think that you’d better read it again.
Listen, if a Pastor is faithfully preaching the Word of God,and God blesses his Church, and they grow; then Hallelujah! If a Pastor and staff are faithfully preaching sound doctrine, and they’re running 1600 in Sunday School, and baptised 121 last year…then praise God!
But, that’s not really what this post is about. It’s about some SBC leaders…Pastors included..who think that bigger equals better. And, if there’s any sort of decline at all…then, oh my goodness, let’s get new programs! Let’s get nervous and start trying all sorts of off the wall things so that we can get our numbers back up. Let’s start doing things that are shallow and weak and will lead to vanilla Christians who have a Walmart mentality about Church. After all, we cant let our numbers drop. That’s what we’re talking about here.
BTW, Rick, how big is the Church you attend?
David
could you be a little more specific as to name the programs, and shows that they are doing? I am not agreeing or disagreeing it just seems you are flying off and not giving specifics.
Brian
Brian,
There have been so many new programs and methods the latest fad of growing Church seminars that have come at us from all sorts of places that it would be impossible for me to remember all of them. Are you a Pastor? If you are, do you not get the same mail, and phone calls, and faxes that I do? You know, the ones telling you that your Church needs to do this, and we need to do that, if you’re gonna grow. Or, your Church needs to become more of this, and needs to be more like that, if you’re really gonna reach people. Or, your Pastor needs to attend this conference, or that conference, if he’s gonna stay with it. I mean, if he’s gonna stay on the cutting edge, then he’d better attend the “Missional, emerging, how to reach people thru drinking coffee” conference…if he’s gonna stay sharp and hip and able to lead the Church into the new century.
Dont take me wrong. I’m not saying that there’s anything wrong with going to conferences or seminars that inspire and bless you…that might teach you some helpful things. Some of them are good, and I’ve been blessed at some of them.
David
David,
Your article seems to justify the decline of the SBC and Churches. We should not look for an excuse but just admit that the last 30 years has had an adverse effect than what we intended. I have pastored for 27 years churches as small as 16 weekly attenders and as large as 2000. Doesn’t matter the size. Decline is decline at any level. SBC is declining, lets accept that and turn it around.
If we were growing in the SBC we wouldn’t have this conversation but we would attribute it to the fact we won the inerrancy issue. Now since we won and we are declining, we need to find another excuse. To me, David its even more irresponsible to accept decline. And believe that the SBC shouldn’t be that upset with decline. I don’t get the logic. I don’t accept the idea that less money for missions, theological institutions, and literature is a good thing. I don’t accept the idea that smaller churches are better. I guess you can say I am about the big, and bigness of our big God.
Rick,
Again, what I’m trying to get over in this post is not about big vs. small, nor am I rejoicing over the decline, but rather I’m trying to say that we dont need to get into panic mode just because there’s decline. We dont need to blame this one, or that one. We dont need to grasp for straws, nor panic in the water when we feel like we’re about to drown.
Believe me, I love growth. I love to see big crowds at Church. I love to see budgets get bigger. I love to see people get saved and get baptised. But, if we do decline…for whatever reason… we dont need to panic and start throwing our hands up and start compromising doctrine and trying wierd things in some attempt to get our numbers back up.
Joel Osteen has a big Church. I wouldnt want the SBC to model anything that he does. I dont care how big his church is. His doctrine is bad, even to the point of heresy; yet, he has huge crowds. Big deal.
I know of some Churches around these parts that will baptise tons of people, yet they dont grow in SS nor in worship attendance. You know why? They rebaptise people over and over and over again. Oh, they have good baptismal numbers alright, but is it good numbers? I dont think so. Do you?
Besides, Rick, I trust in the sovereignty of God. The Church is His Church. Not my Church. Not your Church. He can do whatever He wants to do with it, and He can do whatever He wants to do with the SBC. WE are to remain faithful to Him.
David
PS. We had five people come forward last Sunday for baptism and one moved thier letter. We thank God for everyone of them.
At least we can agree on the right shade of orange.
Rick,
Glad to hear that you’re a Vol fan!
David
David 007,
I believe most, if not all of us, will be amazed at the rewards in Heaven and to whom they are given. There is a time and place to praise the big, growing, yuppie (to use an outdated word) churches. There is also a time and place to recognize the faithful small church pastor who is often laboring in difficult circumstances. Your article brings them much needed recognition.
You had better not, however, let my mother hear you talking about your third “B.” :-)
David R. Brumbelow
David,
Dont tell your Mom that I said that part.
Thanks,
David
Great post brother! Could not have hit the head of the nail any more square!
Thank you, Brother.
Brother Rick,
Your article seems to justify the decline of the SBC and Churches. Did we read the same article? To be fair, Brother David does seem to not be concerned over the decline. However, I have not seen anyplace he has justified the decline.
I, on the other hand, am more than willing to justify the decline.:)
Seriously, not trying to justify anything, but I do believe that if one would do some research one would find that families are not as large as they once were and we no longer have our children that we are counting in these reports. Many of the increases in the past, especially since 1970′s, has been our own children. I honestly believe this decline began many years before 2008. It just took that long for it to show up in our numbers.
Blessings,
Tim
Tim,
my comments are about the meta narrative of David’s article. Appears obvious to me.
Good word Brother David,
The Kingdom of God has never lost any of its adopted children and it will continue to increase until Christ comes again! Those that fear bad statistics should be encouraged that God is still at work….preparing more folks prepared to harvest those fields he has already prepared. Fear mongering is simply selfish tactics, because God in Christ has never missed a beat in his redemptive plan.
Blessings,
Chris
I am an SBCer for over 40 years. There are things I don’t agree with that my denomination does. Yet with that said I think it is time we spent less time concerning ourselves with what the SBC is doing or not doing and more on just being the Great Commission church we all desire to be.
I agree that love of numbers is a big problem. For years the SBC (and evangelicalism in general) has practically deified the mega-church pastor. The who’s who within the SBC has invariably been comprised of mega-church pastors. SBC Presidencies invariably go to mega-church pastors. I wonder how many missionaries could have been supported with the money spent on building church gymnasiums?
Getting smaller is a good thing. It’s the right thing.
Bill,
I’m not saying that smaller is better. I’d love to see the SBC reach millions across this nation. But, just because we’re dealing with decline doesnt mean that we should water down the Gospel, quit teaching the Word of God, and have dog and pony shows to just get numbers. Our growth should come the right way…by us faithfully worshipping the Lord, preaching and teaching His Word, and serving for the glory of Jesus. We should just trust God to grow His Churches.
Amen?
David
I believe that we are truly afraid of letting God work. We live in a culture obsessed with numbers and growth, and so we have come to believe success is the result of our programs and our own efforts. God is in charge, so let’s work for the kingdom but leave the results up to Him. We need to share the Gospel and let God change hearts.
John,
I think you are exactly right. I think that for too long in the SBC we’ve depended on programs and methods instead of depending on the power of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit. I think that we’ve been so caught up in us working harder and using Fortune 500 methods and depending on new programs to GROW, i.e., reach crowds; that we think that we’ve achieved things for God. It’s almost a “look how this fella is doing God a favor” mentality. Instead, we ought to faithfully serve God and serve people in His name, and let Him grow His Church. That will be true growth.
Amen, John?
David
Personally I do think smaller is better, and doesn’t preclude us from reaching millions. That is, after all, what the cooperative program is all about. But the way we give glory, laud and honor to mega-churches and their pastors, it is no wonder that everyone gets the “bigger is better” message. I think pastors ought to know their flock. I think members ought to know one another. I believe discipleship, mentoring, and accountability are all better performed in smaller churches. (I want to qualify that last statement. I think it is true, all other things being equal. I’m sure there are big churches doing a good job and small churches doing a lousy job)
There is one thing that I want to remind us all of in this discussion of numbers: every number represents a soul. And from that perspective I believe Jesus is very concerned with numbers, little numbers or large numbers. Peter reminds us “that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” So, although I am not panicking about the decline in the numbers of the SBC, I am concerned that the decline in those numbers may also mean a decline in the numbers of the kingdom..
I get the premise of your post. Don’t water down the gospel just to get butts in the seats and dollars in the offering plate. After reading it a second time, the second paragraph compares large church pastors to small church pastors and the accolades that one group received compared to the lack of accolades the other pastors received. And then you go from there to detail the compromise of the gospel to gain numbers.
Who are you writing this about? The small churches that are changing the gospel to get butts in the seats or the large church that you think compromised the gospel to get the butts in the seats and the children under 4 baptized?
Though you were invited to write and not me, I for one am tired of giving broad assessments of SBC leaders. Who are the leaders who are panicking to the point of compromising the gospel? Are you sure you are not creating something that is not a reality? From my perspective, it just seems like a little bit of an excuse for our churches to be declining.
There are 38,000 people in my community. I am too small of a church until every single person in my community loves Jesus Christ. That’s the bottom line – that’s the measure that I will be judged. Thank you for allowing me to interact with your post.
Brent Williams
Brent,
It fits whoever it fits. It fits all those Pastors out there who have resorted to preaching Joel Osteen type stuff, or psychological self help stuff, just to get a crowd. It applies to all those SBC leaders…Pastors and/or Denominational fellas…who believe that we cant preach sound, doctrine in order to reach a crowd. Or, who think that we have to leave the doctrines that we hold dear as Baptists in order to be more hip, to reach the “younger crowd.” It’s the ones that are embracing ecumenism, and who try to merge the SBC into the broader evangelical world in order for us to “stop the decline.” It’s the ones who think that we have to embrace the emergent crowd, or that we have to soften our views on ordaining women, or on alcohol, or on homosexuality being sin, or on baptism as being by immersion only.
Besides, Brian, the paragraph about the big Churches and thier Pastors being featured in the SBC magazines, etc. was to show that for years we valued the mega Church, or the fast growing Churches, or the Churches that baptised a huge number, to the extent that that turned into the model for success in SBC life. And, this led to the SBC being obsessed with numbers..big numbers. And, when the numbers are declining a little bit, then all of a sudden that’s bad. That’s terrible. That’s a matter for grave concern, and we need to discard soundness for fads…so that we can grow again… be “successful” again.
That’s the way I see it from the things I read and hear and observe in SBC life.
David
I just want to say something here to avoid any confusion. I’m not against numbers. I’m speaking out against the overemphasis on numbers, and on numbers being the measure of success in the SBC for years. And, how that declining numbers has seemed to cause some of our leaders to panic.
Also, I’m not speaking against programs and methods so much, as I’m speaking against the dependence on programs and methods. I think that sometimes some Church leaders think that the answer to not enough numbers is to try this new program, or to follow that new fad of methodology, or philosophy. Or, that we’ve got to ditch sound, Baptist doctrine in order to reach this crowd, or that group. And, a few of them even leave sound, Bible teaching period…all in the name of “numbers success.” They take on a Joel Osteen-Robert Schuler-Brian McClaren approach to Church.
I’m saying that panic over lack of “numbers” seems to be grabbing a hold of some in our SBC. Because, after all, numbers=success.
I say that numbers does not equal success. And, whether we’re in a mega Church, or in a small Church, the measure of success is faithfulness. Are we being faithful to preach and teach the Word of God? Are we faithfully teaching sound doctrine and theology? And, are we standing our ground on issues that are important to us as Baptists…like baptism and the Lord’s Supper and salvation by grace thru faith and salvation by Jesus only and adhering to the clear teachings of Scripture without compromising to the culture of the day, i.e., ordination of women, homosexuality, alcohol abuse, etc.
So, I’m not against numbers. Heaven’s no. I wish that every sinner in the county that I live in would be in my Church this Sunday. I wish that we’d baptise 200 people next year. I wish that our SS avg. attendance would increase by 100 next year. But, you know what? I’m not gonna feel like a failure, nor that my Church is a “bad” Church if we dont. The numbers are God’s business. Our business is to faithfully serve Him.
Amen?
David
David,
Brother, you’re singing my song. Thank you for this most insightful post. Also, thanks to SBC Today for making a stand on this vital issue.
Les
Les,
I’m always glad to make you happy.
David
HEre is a thought on “declining”:
Could it be that the 16 million number never was 16 million and thus maybe what is occuring is that honesty and accurate accounting of members by the current generation of Pastors is actually bringing us to a more true number. Every church I have Pastored I trimmed the roles of people who had passed away, moved, or changed churches and were not taken off the roles.
I do on the other hand beleive that our largest number of churches (250 or less) are indeed in a state of decline and this must change.
For all those who promote the 16 million number – my home church growing up, my Pastors, nor my friends in ministry, ever cared!
Great job David!!!!
“Sometimes you have to trim a tree to get it to bear more fruit.”
We SBC types are working on a model that does not work. It’s traditional, non-relational, and educational. Just because it worked in the past, it doesn’t necessarily produce life now. Most “builders” did ministry with programs. Today, “bridgers” could care less about programs. That’s why younger people are leaving our churches. We don’t relate to them.
I like the attention you bring to the 3 B’s. We ask the superficial questions. We never ask, “where did they baptisms go? Did they connect to the small group? Any invite them over to eat and disciple them? Where is the money going? Are we spending and planning for the next generation in mind?” We need to ask the hard questions of “where are the new church members 6 months later?”
I’ve learned the education and training I’ve received was outdated when I graduated. Baptists can learn a lot from the “forms” of other churches. Small churches need to feed on fellowship and stop trying to be big. They need to think big and provide quality in context.
I listened to Dr. Frank Page’s message at the Small Church Leadership Conference 08 yesterday. He said most large churches are declining but the pastors would never admit it. Large churches have the save problems on a larger scale.
The SBC needs to change it’s model of ministry.
Alan,
Let’s continue with the tree motif for a moment.
Would it not be better to say the SBC needs to ‘trim a few limbs” on the ministry tree rather than to say the “SBC needs to change it’s model of ministry?
Would that not be “throwing the baby out with the wash” so to speak?
CB,
Yes, I’m not saying throw it all out. But it’s form should change. For example, what’s the difference in one Sunday School and another one? One gives life and the other does not. Whatever it takes to give life, do that.
Thanks for pushing for clarification.
Alan,
I realize you are over 6′ tall and the present economy is problematic to say the least. But what you just said about Sunday School makes you worth your weight in gold no matter the state of the economy.
That is the kind of “trimming the tree” to which I reference.
Thank you,
cb
Brother cb,
I believe the tree is probably alright,…it just needs to produce a bit of fruit. Fruit is not baptism’s per say. Fruit extends from those that have been baptized and those that follow Christ are refreshing to the ecclesia.
The model of the “big church” say 1000 folks with a Pastor and some administrators or specialized ministers is simply not biblical.
Alan is right,…. the model of ministry that seems to have been effective in the past is in many of the cases only able to convince people to be baptized, not necessarily following Christ, consequently bearing little fruit if any at all. Now even baptism stats are taking it on the chin.
Blessings,
Chris
that is good….convincing people to be baptized contrasted to following Christ. I see that in many of our forms.
Chris,
Climb a tree.
Go out on the biggest limb you can find.
Wait there.
I will be there shortly with a saw.
:-)
Brother cb,
Just let me know which side of the limb your standing on before you cut…
Your a meanie, but I love it!
:)
Blessings,
Chris (tree hugger)
Chris,
Hugging trees can lead to poison ivy and ticks. I’d recommend not getting too close.
David
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OK, here is a BIG surprise: I AGREE with a lot (maybe even most) of what David Volfan007 writes here. I am not sure I would agree with his assessment of all the theology, or at least with the application of it all, re: women in ministry and the implied evil of beverage alcohol–but then he may have just been using hyperbole to make a point, whatever, because I agree with his major premise.
Nearly 20 years ago, when I was pastoring a small, new work church in a small community near Wilmington, NC, I received my copy of some magazine the SBC sent out. I don’t remember for sure now which it was, maybe Facts and Trends, maybe one of the others–but I remember the lead article was some “successful” pastor in the metro Atlanta area, and how “his” church was growing by leaps and bounds, and he was being held up as an example for the rest of us to follow. There was even a photo of him playing basketball with some kids, and the notation that despite how hectic his schedule was, he found an hour each week to play with his kids! A hour ever week? I TOOK more time than that every day for each of my kids, and I didn’t have to “find” it, because God called me to be a father long before He called me to be a pastor. I said (to myself) right then and there, “The SBC wants our alliegance to the (earthly) church first and foremost, regardless of who suffers for it–our families, ourselves, the Kingdom of God, whoever.” And that trend continues. Those pastors are still being held up as role models. I was old enough and mature enough then to see beyond it–I was, after all, 33 when I percieved my call into the ministry, and 35 when I was called to my first pastorate–but not every pastor has that advantage.
It isn’t new. Shortly after that, I got to know an elderly, retired pastor, now gone on to his heavenly reward. He told me that he pastored a small to medium church here on the eastern seaboard when an SBC agency (I think the Home Mission Board) asked pastors to quit their established churches and move out to pioneer areas and begin churches upon faith–with no financial backing or help from the aforementioned agency–and if they went on faith, God would reward them. Well, God saw him through a difficult period all right, but with no earthly assistance, he and his family suffered for it to the extent that their finances were wrecked and at age 75 or 80, he worked part-time for a funeral home in return for free rent at a little house they owned and preached part-time at a cantankerous little country church, all just to make ends meet.
There are good little churches and good big churches, good missional churches and good traditional churches, and poor ones of all sizes and styles too. Amen, Alan Stooddard for what you said.
John Fariss