Thank you for bringing those points forward in post #71. God births His church where the gospel of preached. The terminology provided by scripture for “body of Christ” and “church” mean the same critter throughout scripture and are never in contradiction. The local congregations that form out of what God has called in Christ are simply that,…local manifestations of the entire church. Some do look rather odd, immature, lopsided, but on the other hand they are beautiful expressions of the differing gifts that God has put together to love and encourage one another.

In stark contrast to biblical ecclesiology, Churches in America are so “building” oriented and safe, that the congregations tend to lose sight of “who the church is” and replace it with a some contrived, complete, and self-maturing picture of what “they” intend for it to be. That is what makes America a great place for missionary work!…. because there are multitudes of people that dress up and make their weekly pilgrimage down the street to do their religious function….yet even in their “going” never taking the privilege to worship, or receive communion, or engage in “one another gifting” given to the body (Romans 12).

I always think it interesting that in America we use the phrase … “Where do you go to church”…as if the place you end up is important. Some of the church are taught to think that way. That is such a foreign concept to how the scripture views the church. Scripture always refers to the church as meeting together (individuals) from the view of being called out by God,…not from the view of arriving at a place. In other words, in scripture the church was “met with”, “belonged to”, “prayer made fervently by”, “the church at” ….Luke put it this way in Act 13:1 “Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Act, So the church at”, “gathered the church together”, etc.

Its not really that hard to obey the commands of Christ as the church meets together for prayer, fellowship, worship, teaching, encouraging one another, etc…wherever they meet in homes, small buildings, large buildings, etc. The conversation for “determining” or “constituting” or saying “is this really a church” never occurs in scripture. We would do well to begin understanding the church as the Apostles have explained and what she is doing in scripture.

Blessings,
Chris

I have been doing my listening phase of this conversation and feel I have a decent understanding of your perspective. Thank you for sharing it with me. I have grown through this interaction.

Now, I would like to make a couple of observations. But first, I want to make it clear that it seems to me we are both striving for the same thing: healthy, reproducing congregations. (Inherent in health is mature leadership.)

At the same time, I also think that our personalities and experiences predispose both of us to looking at the same situations from different perspectives. This is the reason I engaged you in this conversation… I firmly believe that iron sharpens iron.

My two observations are as follows:

First, it seems that we, here in the West tend to measure maturity so much by knowledge that we neglect obedience. My contention would be that if someone’s knowledge level is seven and his obedience is three (3/7), he is not as spiritually mature as one who’s knowledge level is five and obedience is four (4/5). Are either complete? Of course not, but I would argue that the more obedient one is more mature than the one who has much knowledge but has not implemented it.

Second, I do not think you have considered the implications of everything you are saying in VARYING situations. In the example of the church planter being kicked out and not having access to the people group, this is evidenced by several unanswered questions. First, given no one is qualified to lead as they are all “new converts,” who is the “outreacher” or “church planter” (either indigenous or foreign)? Second, who has “ecclesiological authority” in this instance? Third, how will the church planter confirm upon the “outreach group” the status of “church” (or how he would collaborate with them to come to a joint decision)? Fourth, who will appoint the leaders when they are mature?

Again, my point is that churches are not planted in perfect situations and we must deal with what we have. The goal is always healthy, reproducing congregations (including mature leadership). The reality is that sometimes the church planter is forced out prior to seeing this. The question is whether or not the immature group left behind is a church. I am 100% sure that you and I would both be very excited about the fact that there are people who have been, and are being, transformed by the Spirit of God in this persecuted environment. But are they a church?

I would simply say that a community that worships God does exist. And, just as the communities of worshippers of God in Corinth, Galatia, Laodicea, etc had major issues in both doctrine and practice, this community also has some growing to do! However, Jesus’ promise to be among them remains. If you want to call them an “outreach group,” go right ahead. But I would say that brothers and sisters who meet intentionally to encourage, edify and exhort, hold each other accountable, grow in faith, worship God and faithfully share the Good News in the midst of persecution cannot simply be called an “outreach group.” They may not be perfect, but they are still the body of Christ. I could not care less what we call them in our statistical reports ;^) I only care that they are being obedient to Jesus and growing!

Thank you for sharpening me brother!

May we both be obedient to the King,
From the Middle East

In regard to your other question, if I understand you correctly, you are asking what to do if a church planter is kicked out and only new converts remain. Hopefully the planter who was kicked out can return or another planter can pick up where he left off. In the meantime, hopefully the first planter left behind some discipleship materials that can be utilized by the group.

I caught your answers in 67 after posting 68, please re-answer applying the same principles to our hypothetical situation (which is, in reality, not really all that hypothetical).

Apologies again for the poor communication on my part.

Peace to you!

Apologies for the lack of clarity.

In the first example (comment #64) I am not assuming all in the group are illiterate. Some are literate.

With regards to the second question (comment #65), you are exactly right. I have the same situation in mind for both situations. My experience is primarily in those kinds of situations. If all in the area were not new converts, we should have local church planters involved from the beginning and there would not be an issue upon our leaving!

An additional question that arises for the second question is who determines that the outreach group has made it to church status?

Hope this clarifies…

My outreach groups were composed mainly of non-Christians. There were a few Christians in the groups, and some of the non-Christians became Christians.

You asked, “Who is doing the reaching out in the example of the church planter being kicked out? Even if it is the one going through the curriculum?”

I don’t understand your question. Please clarify it.

You also asked, “How do we, or they, determine when they have moved from being an outreach group and become a church?”

The 2000 Baptist Faith and Message provides a good definition of the biblical church:

“A New Testament church of the Lord Jesus Christ is an autonomous local congregation of baptized believers, associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the gospel; observing the two ordinances of Christ, governed by His laws, exercising the gifts, rights, and privileges invested in them by His Word, and seeking to extend the gospel to the ends of the earth. Each congregation operates under the Lordship of Christ through democratic processes. In such a congregation each member is responsible and accountable to Christ as Lord. Its scriptural officers are pastors and deacons. While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.”

The charter members should be covenanted together to be a biblical church as defined above.

I said:
What term do you prefer to use for this community of believers among darkness that is not really a church?

You said:
When I was an IMB team leader, I had to fill out an “Entity Annual Statistical Report” each year. The term for a group that was not yet a church was “outreach group.” I think that is a useful term.

To have an outreach group, it would seem someone who is more mature is reaching out to someone who is less mature.

1. Who is doing the reaching out in the example of the church planter being kicked out? Even if it is the one going through the curriculum?
2. How do we, or they, determine when they have moved from being an outreach group and become a church?

Peace to you,
From the Middle East

1. Thank you. Literate means would be excellent among some people groups. Who would you recommend lead these groups? Would this put them in the unofficial position of “spiritual leader?”
2. But it sounds as if no one can be the “primary Bible teacher” in some situations due to their immaturity. In this instance would it be the one who wrote the curriculum? ;^)
3. Gotcha. I was thinking more in terms of persecuted environments, not resistant peoples. Sorry about the miscommunication.

May His face shine upon you,
From the Middle East