Homosexuality, Worldviews, & Ministry

What I found interesting in the three Gushee essays as well as the follow up by Mrs. Campolo is the complete absence of any effort to deal with biblical evidence.

People on that side of the fence often lament “proof-texting” and I agree that picking a verse here or there can be dangerous. But shouldn’t Christians seek some sort of proof of their position in the text?

The fact that they make absolutely no effort to base their position in scripture is clear evidence of the place that scripture has in their hearts.

The homosexual-acceptance movement cannot marshall biblical support for their arguments. Their only hope is to get people to ignore biblical evidence and to accept some nebulous “justice and tolerance” ethic instead of the biblical revelation.

A few thoughts:

When you’re painting with a BIG OLE BRUSH and you invoke the CBF, what does that mean?

In your opinion, what is the CBF? WHO is the CBF?

A group of theologically diverse Baptists comprise the CBF. Some welcome gays and a minority (nobody knows how many) both welcome and affirm gays. That’s a statement of fact.

As to the ACTUAL leadership of the CBF – meaning those whose paycheck says Cooperative Baptist Fellowship – who is welcoming and affirming? The CBF’s most public figure, Daniel Vestal, has been very consistent on this issue. The CBF’s policy regarding homosexuals which Vestal wholeheartedly supported was indeed opposed by some. Interestingly, the true progressives and even the gays and lesbians that I’ve encountered in one way or another don’t feel comfortable at CBF Gatherings. Undoubtedly, the New Baptist Covenant was a slap in the face to those types.

In the interest of healthy dialogue, start by defining your terms.

WHO is the CBF?

Secondly, let’s remember that David Gushee along with a well-known Bapto-Catholic from BTSR has been regularly penning Op-Eds for ABP since early 2007. It was not until late March, 2008 that Gushee even mentioned the hot-button topic of homosexuality. I’m rather certain that Gushee writes what he wants to write. ABP probably doesn’t assign op-ed topics to a Distinguished University Professor. Most published Profs don’t have time to write regular op-eds for a Christian publication. In this post, you really seem to be suggesting that the evil ABP is purposely pushing a homosexual agenda by recruiting Gushee to write at length on the subject. Having a published tenured Prof for a father, I’d bet that Gushee does what Gushee wants to do. His opinions are his own. ABP’s running such columns don’t imply that they support his positions.

Since you’re emphasizing this 4:1 ratio nonsense. Let me ask: What is it about the March 27, 2008 op-ed that you so strongly disagree with? Gushee doesn’t stake out an argument in that column. All he does is offer some basic ethical advice for Christians. In the second column, Gushee describes the innocuous first coumn as a “Jesus-focused recognition of the suffering of homosexuals.” Hard to deny that Christians have mistreated homosexuals.

Gushee’s second column merely presents the two competing “narratives” in the homosexuality debate. It is not until the last paragraph of that column that Gushee tips his hat as to what “narrative” he embraces. Really, Gushee’s third column is his only article in this series that stakes out a clear position. If you were “disgusted” by Gushee’s third column, so be it. I was “disgusted” with the professor from Union’s column. And I wasn’t disgusted because of his position that same-sex relationships are sinful. I was disgusted with a few of his other non-Bible related conclusions. I, however, do not believe that ABP has an anti-gay agenda. I don’t recognize the ABP as having any agenda. Despite my disagreements with GUshee and the Union Professor, I have enjoyed the series and the controversy.

I’m not going to agree with you. You’re not going to agree with me. However, I believe we should do our best not to misrepresent one another. When you connect Gushee’s views to the ABP and the ABP to CBF and then pick up a BIG BRUSH, I think you’ve begun to travel down Roger Moran’s road. That’s unhealthy and really intellectually dishonest. We can avoid that by better defining our terms and refusing to pick up that BIG BRUSH when tempted. I used to paint broadly with a BIG BRUSH as well. That all ended after a professor ate my lunch in a seminar discussion.

By the way, like you, I have also had to deal with this issue in my extended family. One of my cousins is gay. The other was gay. He died of AIDS a decade ago. One of my best friends came out of the closet to me and me alone last week. As Gushee said, how we deal with this issue is indeed complex.

Chris,

I said, how we “deal with this issue is complex.”

In the real-life situations, “dealing” with a friend or family member who announces that they are homosexual is indeed complex. It’s difficult. There are no easy answers on how to handle such situations. It’s not always easy to have a healthy and loving relationship with a friend or family member whom you believe is “choosing to sin against God’s design.”

One can say “homosexual sex is a sin.” But clearly the notion of “Loving the Sinner and Hating the Sin” is not a simple notion.

That’s just one way that “dealing” with this issue is complex. There are other ways that homosexuality is a complex issue (similar to abortion) but I’m not going to go there. We most certainly won’t agree. Though I hope with the example provided above, we can both agree that dealing with the issue is complex.

I don’t think it’s complex either…We all have unsaved family members that we have to deal with. Every situation needs to be addressed in love and truth. Why should this situation be any different? Is it because of the in-your-face factor? The gates of Heaven will not allow any sin to pass, that is not complex. You need not even bring up the gay factor when you simply focus on the righteousness of Christ, we all realize who we are when we compare ourselves to the blinding, consuming fire of His Holiness.

I believe that many times our decision to treat homosexuality different from other sins and our personal sins speaks loudly about our true feelings on grace, forgiveness, and Christ’s death on the cross.

I don’t think we should ever excuse sin, but we must not get to a place where we believe we are without it or somehow our sin smells better.

Brother BDW,

It appears you rush too quickly to our disagreement. I don’t think that in the end we disagree. But, in the beginning there are differences in understanding.

Take for instance the lament of God over Israel…..

Lamentations 4:1-6 How dark the gold has become, How the pure gold has changed! The sacred stones are poured out At the corner of every street. (2) The precious sons of Zion, Weighed against fine gold, How they are regarded as earthen jars, The work of a potter’s hands! (3) Even jackals offer the breast, They nurse their young; But the daughter of my people has become cruel Like ostriches in the wilderness. (4) The tongue of the infant cleaves To the roof of its mouth because of thirst; The little ones ask for bread, But no one breaks it for them. (5) Those who ate delicacies Are desolate in the streets; Those reared in purple Embrace ash pits. (6) For the iniquity of the daughter of my people Is greater than the sin of Sodom, Which was overthrown as in a moment, And no hands were turned toward her.

How dark does the gold of the gospel need to appear to appease the homosexual. What is typically misunderstood by the homosexual or by those apparently sympathetic to the nature and sin of perversion is the “offensive motive” manipulated by the sinner comfortably nestled under the wrath of God. It is not complex to understand that God is no respecter of men and the selfish motives of man will be turned to dust in the presence of Almighty God. Does God tolerate sin,…or has He already judged it? People that choose homosexual behavior are aggressively set against God (although they clearly reject that thought), but somehow believers give greater reverence to the person in sin than they do to the God that hates sin. That is bizarre logic and anti-biblical.

The homosexual that is professing Christ is asking for bread, yet Christians are better prepared to hand them “rocks” of appeasement by coddling their fears and sympathizing with their feelings. It’s certainly not out of benevolence, but more from a fear of rejection or alienation. Sympathy for sin is always a selfish matter for a pride filled Christian, no matter if it is me or you.

I probably do agree with you….that it can be very complex if the goal is to be sympathetic to fixing the situation without confronting the sin. The complexity comes from misunderstanding the cause.

Again, I don’t think we disagree….we are just thinking differently about the cause. Homosexuality is an obvious perversion of God’s design for humankind that some Christians want to make not so obvious. It stands to reason that a Christian that is not offended by homosexual behavior will not confront it. Non-confrontation is a lack of love for your brother or sister. To let a friend of mine wallow around in obvious sin because I am trying to figure out a more sensitive way to approach them and stay in good graces is bizarre backward thinking and tantamount to mal-practice.

Blessings,
Chris

Brother Scott,

Thank you for this posting and the spirit in which you have written. I too have those in my family who have chosen the homosexual lifestyle – and I too have a hard time understanding why some think the sin of homosexuality has more “complexities” than say, the sin of murder. In fact, my extended family has a whole host of sins present in it that many in my family would like to ignore – but which the righteousness of God will one day require an accounting. As a servant of Christ and a minister of His gospel, I carry a tremendous burden for these family members who are facing the judgment of the infinitely holy God. I cannot dare trade the holy and just demands of God for family harmony. Though I speak with grace and love to these issues when God allows – sin has so blinded their hearts that all they hear is condemnation. Then they take offense and accuse me of being judgmental and pharisaic. This has certainly made for some “interesting” family gatherings.

The only “complexities” found in confronting any sin is when one allows “…relationships or external pressures such as societal shifts in morality or ethics.” That’s a good word Brother Scott. One that we should all remember as we seek to be true to the God who compels us with His love in witnessing to all “about repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus,” (Acts 20:21).

Grace
Wes

Brother Cody,

I think you make a valid point. We “the church” are too often ready to pounce on sin at every turn (usually out of pride) and at the same time unwilling to confront sin because of pride as well.

What if you found out first hand that the husband of one of your wife’s closest friends was having an affair (all being members of the same body of believers)? Is it ok to confront that obvious sin? I hope so,…for the benefit of husband and the abandoned wife and the church. But, much like homosexuality, we tend to want to look to the side and ignore it. Or try to find the right way to approach the subject without a confrontation because someone’s feelings might get hurt.

Are you kidding me….in this case… a man has just thrown his wife under the bus, offended God, and His church…..yet it seems today that most people are willing to contemplate the situation , maybe things will turn around,…and most of the time just plain unwilling to get involved. That is sad, …not just for the man and his wife,…but for the church that is sadly lukewarm. Bottom line….they just don’t love one another.

Jesus puts it into perspective…..

Luke 12:57-59 “And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right? (58) “For while you are going with your opponent to appear before the magistrate, on your way there make an effort to settle with him, so that he may not drag you before the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. (59) “I say to you, you will not get out of there until you have paid the very last cent.”

Christ seems to always be black and white…never compromising like we most often do, He always loves like we rarely do. Surely we can learn not to delay loving our brothers and sisters, whether it be adultery, homosexuality, drunkenness., etc. When did confronting sin in love and with gentleness start to become a sin?

Blessings,
Chris

Cody,

I am not Scott, but please allow me to address something you said that I’ve heard before – and I fundamentally disagree with.

You write: “I think its easy to pick on homosexuality and homosexuals. I think the church does it every day. I believe it reveals that many times we do not extend the grace and forgiveness that we enjoy.” I realize this is stated as a personal opinion and you are certainly entitled to an opinion – but its one, as I said, that I have heard before from others and it is frankly based on misinformation.

The church which stands biblically against homosexuality, and yes even to an extent the homosexual, is not “picking on” this sin(er) anymore than we are the adulterer, the fornicator, the drunkard – or any other person living in any other sin. The reason homosexuality is getting such attention in the church today is because there are people who are seeking to turn a blind eye to the offense this sin causes God and they are seeking to lead others to do the same. You don’t have adulterers or fornicators or drunkards marching for “equal rights” or claiming discrimination. Nor do you have these seeking to pressure the church into including them into full membership and participation.

The “grace and forgiveness” that I enjoy is not because God overlooked my sins (which were many and equally repulsive to Him). Nor have I found grace and forgiveness in the Christian fellowship by clinging to those sins and demanding people “accept me as I am (or was).” I have grace and forgiveness because Christ paid the debt of those sins at the cross and has called me to repentance and faith in Him. His Spirit has awakened me to the ugliness of sin and the beauty of His glory. I glory in His grace and forgiveness because God lovingly provided someone to confront me about my sins and show me a better way.

Homosexuality is not being “picked on.” It is making demands of the church that are impossible in the light of God’s amazing, glorious and abundant grace.

Grace,
Wes

WIT,

I appreciate your assertion that you are not my alter ego…

And you have expounded on what I said in response to Cody in comment #15…

“The difference at times in this issue, whether in the public arena or in the issue as I have described for myself, is that Christian’s who hold to the biblical, historical conviction regarding homosexual sin are confronted with the ultimatum that the only acceptable response to homosexuality is complete acceptance of it as normative for anyone who might choose it.”

…so I guess you could be my alter ego!

SOLA GRATIA!

Tom and Big Daddy,

I believe that the CBF needs to be responsible for what they allowed to be said at thier meetings and in thier news articles. Dont you?

I bet that yall would be howling to the highest heaven if the MS Baptist Convention let some good ole boy that wears sheets write articles in the Baptist state paper, and speak at the annual meeting in Jackson, MS. Wouldnt you? You would say that they would be responsible for what they allowed to be said and printed…wouldnt you?

Then, why do you think that the CBF gets a free pass with a “we allow free thinking” at our place?

David

Scott,

Good article. I believe I wrote one like this over at my place not too long ago.

David

John has said: You need not even bring up the gay factor when you simply focus on the righteousness of Christ, we all realize who we are when we compare ourselves to the blinding, consuming fire of His Holiness.

I agree. I do believe homosexuality is a sin. There are just certain situations where saying it once is enough. Then the Holy Spirit must be relied on to bring about the change. This is a sibling in my case, so tearing up the family is not an option. Been there, tried that, we both suffered. Now, I am not silent that I am a Christian, but I do accept and love my sibling where they are now. And I will continue to do so, while praying for doors to open and hearts to change. But to simply say that it is just part of being a Christian, for families to be torn apart? That is not an acceptable answer. Nor do I see this Biblically. Christ ministered to those who were sinners, speaking truth, while having compassion.

Tom,

Apparently you and BDW do not like getting a painting job done quickly.

To hopefully assuage your concern of my apparent monolithic description of the CBF and ABP, let me refer you to the following quotes from this post and my comments…

“I am aggravated by the ABP & CBF lack of forthrightness and consistency regarding the issue of homosexuality. ”

“I have not painted an official stand for the CBF and its news apparatus, ABP. No such stand exists. As far as I have read, all stands regarding this issue are fraught with caveats of all kinds. That is my frustration. Hiding behind multiple safety disclosures, the CBF has taken no stand on what is a biblically simple issue.”

Essentially, I see no stand taken and undeniable acquiescence to the cultural climate, on some scale, regarding the issue of the sin of homosexual behavior. How much acquiescence is acceptable? Tom? BDW?

SOLA GRATIA!

Debbie,

So, you agree with me? That the CBF needs to be accountable for letting Dr. Gushee and Peggy Campolo write what they wrote, and for letting the speakers they had at their meeting espouse some very liberal views? That they shouldnt be excused with a “we believe in free thinking” statement, or a “we dont agree with everything that’s said and written about” statement?

BTW, I would also speak out strongly against the Baptist and Reflector(TN Baptist paper) if they had a KKK leader writing articles on white supremacy.

Also, Debbie, do you realize that we’re discussing about the abpnews having Dr. Gushee and MS. Campolo writing about homosexuality being accepted as ok in Christianity? They’re espousing that a person can be gay and Christian, and the Church ought to be ok with that. That we should be affirming of the gay lifestyle. Debbie, please tell me that you still believe that homosexuality is sin against God?

David

I read Gushees article. It did not say to me that homosexuality was ok. It is a begginning response to how to approach, think and treat homosexuals. I agree. It’s how I have felt for years, it’s how I have done and will always continue to do. Stringing them up by the thumbs with scripture isn’t going to get you anywhere, and just like church discipline is to restore, we should minister in order to win them to Christ, not beat them up, which has been done for centuries. The Bible has never been written to use in that way, it transforms because of the message of Christ. Christ alone is what the Bible points to. That is the power that transforms.

David (Vol),

Yes, I read your article…and then the ones published at ABP. You are truly an inspiration to me! What else could I say to a fellow MABTS alum?

SOLA GRATIA!

Sister Debbie,

Although Dr. Goshee has some good things to say throughout his narratives. He ultimately has very little to sustain the truth… as he proposes new unhurried ways that the Christian church deal with professing homosexual Christians (a so-called in-house narrative debate)….Christ gave other commands (If I am reading him corrrectly, he is only bringing those that are in the church into view).

Dr. Goshee says in his first premise…. “Methodology is everything” …. I think he is wrong.

Dr. Goshee says in his second premise …. “The deeper question is posed by the competing narratives presented above. Either homosexual behavior is by definition sinful, or it is not. If it is sinful by definition, then presumably it must be resisted like any other sin. If it is not sinful by definition, then the homosexuality issue is a liberation/justice struggle for a victimized group.
Probably the right answer to this question will be very clear to everyone (that is, to 99% of all reasonable Christian human beings) in 100 years, as the proper positions on slavery and Nazism and civil rights and Apartheid are to modern-day Christians. But in real time, right now, it is tearing churches and denominations apart here and around the world.” ….

I think he is wrong. There are no competing narratives unless those narratives are artificially assigned and recognized as reality as Dr. Goshee permits. Dr. Goshee sets up a false dichotomy to illustrate his point of “Methodology” that somehow will (possibly within the next 100 years) give the church a satisfactory answer…. Again, he is wrong. The church already has an answer.
Dr. Goshee says in his third premise…. “We need a careful, unhurried process of Christian discernment related to scriptural teachings, our theological understanding of homosexuality, and church practices in relation to homosexuals, undertaken by those who are committed unequivocally to every (other) dimension of the classic Christian sexual ethic — in which sex belongs within marriage (lifetime, exclusive, covenant partnerships), marriage is for life, and the church is a disciplined countercultural community in which these norms are both taught and lived…..

Again…At least Dr Goshee’s is true to his trademark, “methodology”. But again, he lacks biblical support and substance. It appears that Dr. Goshee wants to make the homosexual issue a complex one and one that takes an unhurried process to figure out. I tried to understand his reasoning, but I am still astonished at his “methodology”. We must only go to scripture “briefly” to debunk this philosophy (methodology) of ministry.

Christ was very serious about the work of the His church….not unhurried as Dr. Goshee teaches..…Christ has a bit more straight forward methodology, giving a sense of urgency through the analogy of loosing limbs…

Christ says to people in the church….. Matthew 18:7-9 “Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes! (8) “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. (9) “If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.

Christ says to people in the church….. Mat 18:14 “So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish. “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.

It seems Jesus new the answers to those that will not forgive……. Matthew 18:21-22 Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” (22) Jesus *said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

Dr. Goshee is ultimately wrong. We should take great solice in the command of Christ, that His church rush to the aid of those that are perishing. Its not an unhurried task as Dr. Goshee tries to sustain. Christ is clear…. Do it when you see it if you love your brother. Forgive always,… and do it again….over and over and over again….. but don’t wait, the kingdom of God is at hand.

Blessings,
Chris

Brother Chris,

Thanks so much for articulating what were my thoughts concerning Dr. Goshee’s articles. I too, had a problem with his preferred “methodology” and it really grieved me to hear such a respected scholar espouse such a reprehensible treatment of the truth. What troubled me the most (other than the fact that he never once quoted a verse of scripture), was the way he tried to link homosexuality with a person’s gender or ethnicity. I have heard it before – “well you know Baptist used to think slavery was biblical,” or “in a hundred years, we’ll see we were wrong ‘bout them women preachers.” Such nonsense is beneath a man of Goshee’s caliber – or you would seem to think so anyway.

The article by Campolo … oh, my!

Debbie,

You write to Scott, “I’m a bold person, and that is exactly what I am saying.” (post 35). Do you mean for us to believe that your “Christianity” is not offensive to those who walk in darkness? Do you really mean to say that you have never had someone become offended at you while you witness to them of sin, righteousness and judgment? Or that you have never taken a stand for the truth of God’s Word which caused someone to be offended? Seriously?!?

Also, how do you get that Scott’s quote from Matthew 10:21-25 deals only with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD and doesn’t apply today? I would be greatly interested in your hermeneutics here.

Grace,
Wes

Brother Wes,

Your very kind….but I am hoping that we still have Pastors and teachers in the field that are not sold out to some new pragmatic religiosity. I’m sure Dr. Goshee is a lover of God, and a respected scholar. But there is really no excuse for not testing your own “methodology” against scripture before you allow it to be published. Dr. Goshee did have some common sense things, and some good warnings within his article. But for heaven’s sake, he missed the reason for the imminent return of the Savior for His body, the Church. It certainly is not unhurried coddling of perversion.

These articles should be exposed for what they are….simple pragmatic approaches intended to soothe the wounds of profession Christians that are fed up with the truth of scripture and would rather exchange it with something a bit more friendly and cuddly, so that the “methods” of the church can be “perceived” as a bastion of hope for the world.

God through Paul addressed that type of thought as well…..as the Corinthian Church was involved and wrestling with the same issue…..

1Corinthians 6:9-11 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, (10) nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. (11) Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Unless God is a liar,…the end for the unrighteous is not near the kingdom of God. Paul states that some in the church were washed and sanctified….the key words “such were some of you”….a past tense as he urges them to correct their ways rather forcefully.

There is always a sense of urgency with God, because sin is such a devastating place of residence. There is no room for unhurried expectations. God told the Galatians through Paul…. Galatians 6:10-11 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith. (11) See with what large letters I am writing to you with my own hand.

Dr. Goshee should replace unhurried, with the urgency from God, and replace “methodology”, with the power of the gospel to bring sanctification to those that are perishing, and then rewrite his series of articles.

Wes, thank you for your words as well. I know this topic is near to your heart!…

Blessings,
Chris

Yes Wes, that is what I am saying. Why? Because I develop close relationships with those that I witness too. They know that I deeply care about them, and that them ending up in hell is something that I do not want with everything that is in me. That includes those I have worked with, family, friends. In fact, when I talk to them, it opens the door for them to ask as many questions as they want, and they do. I allow them to be offended, if in fact they are. So yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

Scott: I’m sorry, I just now saw the verse you alluded to in the last comment to me. You are doing what a wise person has called using popcorn verses.

Read that verse in its entire context and then take it, reconciling it to the passages on how Christ was in his ministry to sinners, then we can talk. Also reconcile this to what Christ has said about loving our neighbor as ourselves. The way you are choosing to do it, leaves out too many passages that seem to contradict this passage, but do not. It may make a good post which I may write as too many use these passages as a sign to go to battle when we are to be giving the gospel.

I agree with Billy Graham who has said when asked what he would do if he had a homosexual son replied, “I would love him even more.”

Wes: I disagree with you, in fact if the gospel does separate, it should be out of shame from the person, uncomfortableness and not from anger that you have caused. Too many use these passages as a way to rail and beat over the head a loved ones sin. Abram Piper has written an article on this very thing that does not form my view, as I had it before I read this, but it does articulate probably better than I am the essentials of loving a family member where they are. Not turning your back on them, in fact, aiding and comforting, ministering lovingly to them. It can be done. Most times I say nothing, enjoying their company, for who they are then. There are things I don’t participate in, they know this, it’s fine. Including my sibling who is gay. I love my sibling period. I never bring up the fact of them being gay. Once was enough. They were brought up in a Christian home they know. At work where I have worked with gays, we have talked at lunch and breaks, but not before I have gotten to know them well. Then I am not sarcastic, angry, or even unkind in any way. I start by asking them questions and praying that God move the situation and our words. I know of none who have obtained salvation, but then I may never know until heaven. I am not the HS, I am just the messenger of the gospel of grace.

The only thing you are going to get by badgering and showering anger or developing contention against a loved one is anger, bitterness, and strife. Division. Division that is never ok to have happen in a family. Is the division because of the gospel, or because one can’t stand to have a homosexual in the family. Is it anger or caring, deep caring, which requires time and investment. Putting down the fact that it may be distasteful, rolling up your sleeves, and getting in the muck in order to love and share. There are things that you will never know about that person if you just see that they are gay and not a human being with a story.

I have done hospital work, where I worked with aids patients for several years. Most were gay. It would not have done me any good to leave my love and compassion at the door and divide. Nursing was what I did. When you see someone dying because of an act of sin, be it dirty needle or gay sex, the last thing you feel is judgmental.

Great thread Scott. Your example of the 24 year old who decided to follow the lesbian lifestyle was very applicable to our churces today.
As Christians and church members we have to remember that Jesus Christ died for all. This means we cannot keep the gays and the pierced and tattooed out of our churches. We need to accept them just as Christ accepted us.
In our witnessing we also need to be careful not to judge but instead reflect Christ to them. Our approach must be a loving, Christ honoring approach. I’m not saying we need to accept their practices or lifestyle but when we our trying to reach them we must be careful in how we converse.
The sarcastic comment in your example Scott is nothing new. I have been in the same situation at my church and I admit I have even givent the occasional chuckle. I too, have learned that there is a time and a season to deal with sin. It’s in the pulpit. It’s not when we are witnessing to a lost soul. And may I say this. Our preaching does not need to be lax to attract people to our church. In other words, we do not need to eliminate the topic of sin out of our sermons. Not every sermon should primarily be about sin but it should not be removed from our preaching. The Bible is the Bible. It includes sin.
So, that’s what I have to say about the issue of homosexuality. Very hot topic issue and boy do I see it at college.

Wanda,

You’re one of those FBC Jax Watchdog supporters aren’t you?

Debbie writes to me in post # 46:

“Too many use these passages as a way to rail and beat over the head a loved ones sin.”

“The only thing you are going to get by badgering and showering anger or developing contention against a loved one is anger, bitterness, and strife.”

“Is the division because of the gospel, or because one can’t stand to have a homosexual in the family.”

Debbie, do you know me? Have you ever been with me as I witnessed to someone? Do you know my family? Have you ever seen me “rail and beat over the head” anyone? Have you ever known me to “badger” someone or witness to someone with an angry disposition (how moronic THAT would be). Dear sister, you are making some wild accusations against a brother you do not know, have never met, dealing with circumstances of which you have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever.

You further write: “Wes: I disagree with you, in fact if the gospel does separate, it should be out of shame from the person, uncomfortableness and not from anger that you have caused.” Would you like to tell that to Christ who was crucified by an angry mob because He maintained the truth of the gospel? The fact is that sometimes theTruth does cause anger – no matter how lovingly it is presented. Jesus spoke the truth with the purest heart and motive ever – and they hated Him for it. Such is the ugly nature of sin in the heart of mankind. Though the multitudes followed Him for bread and physical healing, they abandoned Him when it came to the heart of the gospel (John 6).

I am glad you and your sibling have a good relationship. I am grateful God has used you to show compassion to those who were drawing near to death’s door. But why would you use those experiences to insinuate that I am somehow being judgmental because I have had people become angry and sometimes even violent when I share the gospel with them?

You have been given several biblical passages which speak directly to this issue – which you refuse to accept or seek to reinterpret to fit your views. Here is another: “If the world hates you, understand that it hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own. However, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of it, the world hates you. Remember the word I spoke to you: ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will also keep yours. But they will do all these things to you on account of My name, because they don’t know the One who sent Me.” (John 15:18-21). Debbie, in all honesty, it sounds like you have a theology based on personal experience and preference rather than the clear, unified teachings of God’s Word. Clearly the scriptures teach the there are those who respond poorly to the gospel, no matter how lovingly and compassionately it is presented. Just ask guys like Peter, Paul, Thomas, John, James … etc.

Grace,
Wes

BDW,

You wrote: “If you referred to our paper here in Texas as a CBF Paper, you would rightly tick off quite a few Texas Baptists who have no involvement in the CBF.”

If you are referring to the “Baptist Slander,” opps, sorry the “Standard,” that’s really funny. Most of the people at the “Standard” are in fact very supportive of the CBF – as are most of those in the big offices at the Baptist Building. Granted, most of the people in the pews are not CBF’s, but the BGCT leadership has been and is now heavily involved in that organization.

Grace,
Wes

Debbie slapping hand on head, shaking head, leaving.

BWD,
You said, “Not sure about the rest of you, but who I am “attracted” to is not a choice. The decision to engage in actual sexual behavior is the choice. Mere attraction is out of our control.”

I agree with that statement. I have family members who are attracted to the same sex. But this still doesn’t give them the right to act on this.
God condemns Homosexual acts. He also condemns Sodomy. He also condemns bestiality, fornication, adultery.
Do they have a choice in their temptations? Apparently they were tempted.

The problem people have with homosexuals is the “Movement”
Which is:
Education in school, Gay marriage.. etc..

Do you think is OK for public schools to teach 2nd graders that practicing Homosexual acts is ok? I don’t.

Also i don’t think I am doing my homosexual friend any favors by being silent when the health issues they face is are so devastating and deadly.

Tom,

I will agree with you on one point … “once people’s minds are made up it is not possible to discuss anything with them …” and it doesn’t matter how biblically based one’s position may be. Once people become accustomed to basing their positions on personal experiences or preferences – piecemealing prooftexts together in support of thier opinions … yes, it’s very hard to get them to see the truth of the whole of God’s infallible, inerrant Word.

Thanks for your insightful comment. I wasted way to much time in this thread yesterday. I don’t intend to make the same mistake twice.

Grace,
Wes

Big Daddy,

It’s not apples and oranges concerning my white hoods and sheet comment. Are you seriously saying that the ABP is not an arm of the CBF? C’mon, Big Daddy, you know and we all know that they are more than just kissin’ cousins. And, Daniel Vestal can speak out about how it wasnt good what was said at the CBF meeting all he wants to. They knew where that man stood on things. They knew what they were getting. And, they should be held accountable for who they choose to speak at their meetings. They werent innocently ignorant about where this man was coming from.

Big Daddy, also, of course, homosexuals are tempted to commit sodomy…just as adulterers are tempted to commit adultery….just as pedophiles are tempted to fornicate with children…just as teens are tempted to commit fornication on a Saturday nite in a lonely spot….just as people are tempted to lie to get out of a jam, etc. But, they should not commit sodomy just because something has made them tempted to turn that way.

David

Wanda,

Jax is short for Jacksonville, a city in Florida. Forget that comment I made.
What I was getting at was why so stern? You seem to come across as a bit arrogant. No one is upset about unsaved homosexuals.
But I agree with you on the premise that we need to do something about the predators in the SBC.

Jamie,

No, I don’t think it’s OK for public schools to teach that homosexuality is normative to 2nd graders. Honestly, I don’t think its appropriate for 2nd graders to be discussing sexuality in general.

Volfan,

The ABP was founded in 1990. The CBF was founded in mid-1991. The existence of the ABP is not dependent upon the CBF. The existence of the ABP is dependent upon Baptists, specifically “moderate Baptists,” who truly desire an independent news agency.

And how exactly do you know what Vestal might have known about Killinger? He said he did not know. You are accusing him essentially of being dishonest. Nice. What inside information do you have, again? Are you a friend of Daniel Vestal? And who is THEY? That’s my whole issue with this post. Nobody has yet to define what is the CBF. Who is the CBF? Who is THEY? Vestal? Who else are you accusing of being deliberately dishonest? You’ve made a lot of rather harsh ASSUMPTIONS in your comment. A wise law school prof once reminded me what happens when we make assumptions…

Robert,

I was just trying to distinguish between sexual orientation and the actual sexual act itself. I can’t control who I’m attracted to. I don’t believe that sexual orientation is a continuum. I’m wired to like the ladies – in particular one lady who I’m engaged to.

I’m not making a “devil made me do it” excuse. Attraction is not necessarily lust. We’re not living in a constant state of lust. Attraction and “sinful urges” are not one in the same. We can have healthy attractions. And we don’t have to act on any attractions/urges. I have a great friend who self-identifies as being gay. He’s a fine Christian. A young minister in a Pentecostal denomination. And he’s celibate. His religious convictions are the reason he chooses to be celibate. My youth minister in middle school was a celibate gay man. I did not know that until years later when the church ran the minister off after he confided to the pastor the facts of his orientation and intentional celibacy.

Chris,

When you figure out what’s not right, let me know. In the meantime, check out what Tony Campolo has said about homosexuality. He and his wife aren’t exactly on the same page when it comes to this issue.

David:

How kind of you to call Debbie’s thinking irrational and illogical. I have yet to read anything you write that does not contain something illogical or irrational.

Brother BDW,

I guess the reason I am mulling over the philosophy, is to try and understand the direction of such thought. For instance, if I am looking at the world from a Christian worldview…..meaning, to some extent I am aware that I have actually confessed Christ as the redeemer and sin bearer on my behalf, knowing that based on His revealed Word that His righteousness has been imputed to me and I am without a doubt securely and perseveringly held as the Holy Spirit applies the perfect work of Christ to me as sanctification in this life,…ultimately apprehending that I will be like Christ glorified someday….. why in this world would I remain dependent upon “sin” as my definition for life; after death has been conquered on my behalf.

Your youth minister in middle school “was a celibate gay man”. If your youth minister in middle school was in Christ, he was no longer a “celibate gay man”. When Christ imputed His righteousness to Him….He became a celibate. He died to his gayisms in Christ. His wiring was “renewed” to a living being, no longer held by those things that will not enter the Kingdom of God. God does not allow sin to conquer his children. If his wiring had not been “renewed”, he remains in his sin and will suffer the wrath of God. Because your youth minister in middle school is in Christ, he is a new creature, and he chooses to not be homosexual. Wow,…the riddle is solved. Christ is triumphant after all. He can change the leaper’s spots and take away the stain of sin, even before we physically die on this earth.

So the riddle is solved… by being born again. Nicodemus had his riddled solved by Christ. So, just as Nicodemus learned. We cannot change sin, only Christ has. Whether one wants to believe they are born gay or straight is simply a short sighted excuse….know this…we are all born in sin….but, we must be born again. Those that are,…choose to not be homosexually minded by the application of Christ’s righteousness as the mind is renewed as well. That’s simply the truth or God is a liar. His promise is a new creature…. Are we? Some argue that we are not really changed, their resolve is …that we are born this way.

Blessings,
Chris

Brother BDW,….furthermore

Definitions are definitions….they should not limit those in Christ.

“Having sexual and romantic attraction primarily or exclusively to members of one’s own sex”…….. That being the definition…..the question to ask is would God leave His children at the mercy of sin, not the mercy of Himself. Even though Paul is primarily teaching the distinction of justification to the Romans ….God reveals to us “In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; (27) and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. Romans 8:26-27

God is not slack on His promises, or His calling, or His changing us……

Ephesians 4:17-24 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, (18) being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; (19) and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. (20) But you did not learn Christ in this way, (21) if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, (22) that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, (23) and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, (24) and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

We choose to put on the “new self” as children of God. There is no longer “any” residual sin of homosexuality on those that are in Christ. The Children of God …aka “former homosexual” has been commanded by Christ his rescuer to put on what he “is able” to put on because of what is “nature” is in Christ. We should not pretend that we are “not” new creatures.

I’m going to get a black bean salad at Calypso…(yum)..

Blessings,
Chris

Chris: Everything that I have said can be applied to the church. Everything. The church has failed to minister to those who are struggling with homosexuality. Believe me they know more of what the church believes on this subject than most Christians do. They realize the passages. Some even believe that God is against it.

But, there was no one in the church there for them when some were struggling with homosexuality. They were instead chewed out for having the struggle, and ostracized. This is wrong. Battle mode against homosexuality just isn’t what the Bible says. We struggle with sin, it’s just maybe more acceptable to slam homosexuals.

I do not agree with the articles in that I believe homosexuality is a choice, but the devil knows the Achilles heels better than we do, and it is a strong desire for many, that we who do not have that desire fail to comprehend. We don’t even bother to ask. That is wrong. We condemn and throw passages at them such as Scott has thrown at me, which I do not see as being a signal from God to automatically war against them. I gave passages of how Christ dealt with sinners, and they were ignored. I think you will agree that all the Bible must be reconciled to these passages Scott gave, not just taking them alone as a proof text.

As wrong as these articles are, and no, I do not believe homosexuals should be church members, or have any duties in the church. But they should be reached out to if they are in the church. Or they will never darken a church door again. That I will guarantee you. This from having talked to them extensively, including my family member.

The church has taken the stance that homosexuality is not just sin, but disgusting and something the church has not dealt with. We condemn and rail against articles like this, but it’s articles like this where a homosexual is going to turn for help, not because their sins are accepted, but because they are free to talk to people like this. Will they get bad doctrine? Yes, but what are we the church offering? That is my whole point and so I felt it relevant to this thread.

Debbie:

Sadly homosexuals are railed at and condemned in our churches and have been for years. There are a multitude of other sins that could be railed at and condemned–lying, gossiping, overeating, etc. but they are rarely even preached about. I often wonder why?

Wes,

Thank you for your post too. Chris always does a better job explaining than me though.

Scott,
I am afraid if I give an example it will plunge this post into a 12th direction, but here it goes. I am spefcifically refering to the I Timothy passage that some use to say that women should not be pastors. In multiple previous posts this verse has been used devoid of any context. And please, let’s not get into it again here. Thank you.

Sorry, can’t type. Take out the first “is”

BDW,

opps, sorry I can’t spell. “sever” should be “severe.” My bad!

Grace,
Wes

BDW,

Someone says that they are an acoholic, gay, or whatever sin you can think of. They are saved and become a child of God. They still have sinful urges but strive each and every day to be more like Christ. Do they mess up? Yes. but they find forgiveness.

What you are saying sounds like this. God created me to be an alcoholic, or God created me as a homosexual. I just choose to go against the way he created me in obedience to Him. That line of thought is a really big rock on top of a BIG hill. It is easy to give into our desires if we believe that they are part of who we are. They are not part of God’s original design. Sin nature came after the fall.

I am a sinner but God didn’t create me to be one. His desire is for me to be his child.

Hey “crude”,

I have several good friends who would be considered “moderate” and I’ll be happy to count you as one of ‘em (provided you know that means we won’t always agree 8->). I don’t much like lables myself – though I’ve had a lot of them thrown my way.

Thanks again for your posts and insight concerning “orientations.” See, us’ens can get along on some things! 8->

Grace,
Wes

You guys probably already know this, but there is an interesting Baptist Press (bpnews.net) article today that speaks well to this general topic. The article is, “No Longer Lesbian” by Christine Sneeringer. It’s worth reading.
David R. Brumbelow

Brother BDW,

I believe that Free Masonry is in the same category of natural sins of behavior as Homosexuality. Both idolaters and homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God according to Him. A comparison of treatment in the church on those behaviors may raise a few eyebrows.

Blessings,
Chris

Baptist Life on Masonry

Brother BDW,

I hate to keep taking up so much space here (I’m sure others would agree with that). But you hit again on an important fact when you said “At least a couple Southern Baptists described the Masons as a non-issue”. That is the same response you get from a Christian man choosing the homosexual lifestyle. They say, that’s just the way I am,…or was born to be (a good community Samaritan). Mason’s are no different in their estimation. They say that it is just a business fraternity…its been in the family for generations. Its just seems natural and we do a lot of good things in the community. They choose to worship idols for different reasons….No harm done.

Same song, second verse.

Blessings,
Chris

That’s a good question Tom,

Just as the sin of homosexuality is typically a closet issue, I think it is healthy for the leadership of the church not to sweep things under the rug with Freemasonry. Obviously, Freemasonry is a closet issue and idolatrous activity by design of the group. So, it is beneficial for the church to love these Christian men that have entered into idolatry as they would with a Christian that continues to have homosexual tendencies or thoughts.

I get the same reaction from those engaged in idolatry that I get from those engaged in homosexuality…..but that should not stop of from sharing how Christ can free us from those sins that so easily beset us. That’s what brothers and sisters in Christ do.

The SBC did attempt to say something back in 1992,…but the “broom” won. Exposing sin for what it is seems to be allowable by God….

Ephesians 5:6-13 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. (7) Therefore do not be partakers with them; (8) for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light (9) (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), (10) trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. (11) Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; (12) for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. (13) But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light.

Certainly the light has exposed Freemasonry for what it is…but, the closet door seems to have been nailed shut for some time in a lot of congregations. Fortunately some congregations are confronting this hideous secret sin and their congregations are blessed.

Good question though,

Blessings,
Chris