Thank you for revealing to us the heart of a follower and minister of Christ. Your wisdom is showing as you assess how the Holy Spirit will use you in the ministry of the word in the body.

That is the same attitude that Paul expresses to his dear friend in Rome and abroad…..

Romans 16:1-16 “I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea; (2) that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well. (3) Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, (4) who for my life risked their own necks, to whom not only do I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles; (5) also greet the church that is in their house. Greet Epaenetus, my beloved, who is the first convert to Christ from Asia. (6) Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you. (7) Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. (8) Greet Ampliatus, my beloved in the Lord. (9) Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and Stachys my beloved. (10) Greet Apelles, the approved in Christ. Greet those who are of the household of Aristobulus. (11) Greet Herodion, my kinsman. Greet those of the household of Narcissus, who are in the Lord. (12) Greet Tryphaena and Tryphosa, workers in the Lord. Greet Persis the beloved, who has worked hard in the Lord. (13) Greet Rufus, a choice man in the Lord, also his mother and mine. (14) Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas and the brethren with them. (15) Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them. (16) Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ greet you.”

We should all receive our brothers and sisters in Christ and be a “helper of many”.

Blessings,
Chris

I would agree with what Chris said in #9 concerning seminary training. I have received a wonderful education and tools for ministry; however, I have never served in an official capacity. I have all the theory but little of the practice.

God has not called me to minister to children. There is a disconnect between the children and I in my teaching. Again, I have lots of theory about how children think and about how one ought to teach them. But I have been wholly unsuccessful in my attempts to teach them the Bible so that their lives are changed. I’m not saying I dislike children; I do like them. One day, I hope to be married and be a mom; thus, in the parenting form, I’ll have to minister to children- my own. But I do not believe that children’s ministry is the area in which God has called and gifted me to serve.

Amanda, I’m glad another woman has weighed in on this subject, and I agree that missions, evangelism, and discipleship (fulfilling the Great Commission) should be the focused purpose of our churches and Convention. I disagree with your assessment that this issue is one we should disregard. The debate comes because of a clash between what is practical and what is theoretical (as noted by McBeth in his 1979 book and quoted by White and Duesing), and this clash is not resolved easily. I have no proposed solutions save continuing to teach what the Bible has already made clear- God intends for the pastor/elders of the church to be men of good repute and of high moral character (1 Tim. 3).

*anti-spam word? longsuffering.. ironic? Maybe. :)

forgive my word scrambling at times…hopefully it made some sense.

:)

Blessings,
Chris

I appreciate your comments,….. I too am not targeting Patterson whatsoever, but was simply trying to point out that I do not think he apologizes for his convictions even when his convictions may not line up with a thorough exegesis of scripture. I can’t fault the man for being forthright and being convicted, but like all of us, we have our blind spots of conviction and a multitude of warts. Therefore, we should all remain teachable.

In light of our “authority” discussion….. I truly believe that all authority is given to Christ as head of the church. (Matthew 28), and that his word commands that the church function as the Holy Spirit informs those that are called out in obedience to His commands (male and female. So for instance, as I read the most direct translation of the text that I can find, and God declares that men are to oversee (shepherd) the church (called out ones) on earth, then who I am to “not” believe the declaration is true, whether I be a male or a female. The declaration “is” the authority, not “my” understanding of the declaration. I’ll be the first to admit that some will try and work the text to their benefit, and some will try to make “their” understanding of the text the authoritative word. I try to submit to the fact that the word is what it is, I should simply study, preach and teach the text with as much excellence as possible in much prayer and trembling.

I will also be the first to admit that many Overseers that have been voted into a position at a “church” (men) and they abuse their understanding of authority. That many of those Overseers, instead of preaching the gospel of God, …. Quickly become more comfortable with telling people “how” to live and giving them “a list of things” to do and, …some will go as far as to think that everything they do is led by the Holy Spirit. That is unfortunately hogwash and arrogance.

So, with respect to men or women given the charge to oversee the church…I would be the first one to want to know if the sacred text has “declared that women are to oversee the church”. Is there one text in the entire bible where the church is instructed by God to have “women” oversee the body of Christ? I’m not talking about, leading, teaching, instructing men in languages, if they are talented enough, smarter than, better equipped, etc. …. The question is….. “Is it the declaration of God that women should oversee the church?” “ Is that the charge of God?”

We (both men and women in the church) should be able to answer that question.

John, thanks for working this one through with me.

Blessings,
Chris

Thanks for the thoughtful answer. Just a couple of brief thoughts: first, what I wrote was in no way intended as a personal attack on Dr. Patterson. Whether I like him, respect him, or agree with him (or not, on various issues), I simply referenced him as the source of my information on post-CR theological education. I think that attitude does stand in rather stark contrast to what I found as the attitude of pre-CR theiological education, at least if it is generally true rather than the stance of two particular individuals (myself & PP). Second, I respect your understanding of leadership, but even where we agree, it seems that you draw much more distinct lines around the concepts of “leadership” and “authority” than do I. We are each products of our environment, education (formal and otherwise), experience, and perhaps most importantly, our personalities. One of my pet theories is that those, especially the later, play a larger role in the belief systems we adopt than the conscious and articulated reasons with which we justify our beliefs. Hence two Christians can arrive at vastly different conclusions both using the same source (here, the Bible) and the same sort of reasoning; but because of different personalities, etc., we arrive at a slightly different conclusion. Thanks!

John

If seminaries exist ONLY for the purpose of preparing pastors, then I might say that entrance should be limited to men only. But our seminaries have much broader purposes than that.

Personally, I don’t have a problem with a woman teaching theology (or Hebrew) to men in a seminary. But obviously, others do.

I believe that over the next 10 years, the whole “Women in Ministry” issue will be the major source of dispute in the SBC.

Even those of us who agree on the big picture have lots of disagreements on the particulars.

A lot to answer there my friend….I give it a go and see where we land.

First,…the concept I have of leadership is not unlike what you have stated. I too believe that leaders are not elected as such, but actually possess the gifting and over time accumulate the skill to lead and move the church biblically. In the comment I made about our women that minister within the context of our church,…they do lead in a great many aspects of ministry, yet their understanding of unity (Ephesians 4 & 5) is that authority in the church….that is the authority not given “by man”, but authority taught by the Spirit given “to man” is important in the overall health of the body of Christ. So when the Apostle Paul encourages Titus to appoint Elders in every city…..

Titus 1:5-9 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, (6) namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. (7) For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, (8) but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, (9) holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.

So far….. the women in our church would take that to mean that Titus was looking for a qualified man to lead and oversee every church, both to extort in sound doctrine being able to refute those who are not teaching sound doctrine. In other words,….if these women, who are as capable of dividing the word of God in a right manner as much as I, ran into a situation where other men or women were not teaching sound doctrine….they would look to me “the Elder” to remedy the situation biblically. I am more than happy to do this, so that these gifted women can continue to teach and lead in ministry. That would make them wise not weak.

Secondly,

Although I do not really have any axes to grind with Dr. Patterson and I do have respect for his tenaciousness, I do not agree with him on many of his “approaches” to ministry. I think our disagreement (Patterson and me) is based in our slight differences in theology and understanding of some aspects of “justification” and more aspects of “sanctification”. I think both he and I have a decent grasp on “glorification”.

So, I believe you are right to say,…and I do not believe Patterson would disagree so much,…that he wants the students he represents to understand his point of view. I don’t think he disguises that one bit. Again, I have great respect for his tenaciousness and his willingness to jump into the fire and his willingness to try an lead in the SBC, but I think he may at times depend upon “emotion” and “experience” as a guiding hermeneutic …. where scripture clearly moves another direction.

As for me …I’m a quasi-CR educated kind of guy. I enjoy reading and studying as much bible and theology as I can handle ….. That’s why I enjoy a good honest blog site…. where guys are not afraid to help me understand things a little better.

Blessings,
Chris