I am not asking you to remember everything from your past. YOU made charges against Founders folks and it just seems a good idea to present the evidence in your case. If you can’t remember then why bring up the past in such a way? That’s all.

Some Calvinists make certain charges against non-Calvinists and vice-versa. One is no more innocent than the other.

Some Calvinists do and have tried to change churches, but what exactly is your point in mentioning that?

I try to have a healthy dialogue if any issue ever comes up concerning Calvinism and I don’ t use labels. Truth is, most folks I’ve encountered in the church have never studied or thought through enough of the issues theologically to know where they stand or why.

Do you agree with Dr. Olson that most of the church today is semi-pelagian? That is quite a specific charge. Much more of a charge than just saying a theology is man-centered.

I know which Bob Ross it was. I was making a joke. I’ve also read what Ross says about regeneration and am not convinced that he is correct. I don’t think he makes his case.

Thanks for the interaction.

Mark

Also, Peter is not talking about the painter on t.v. He’s talking about a man named Bob Ross, who is probably the best authority on Charles Spurgeon in the world. The man has studied Charles Spurgeon. And, Bob Ross takes the people who believe in regeneration before salvation to task….big time.

David

Do you remember what you had for breakfast 10 years ago? exactly?

Do you have a pretty good idea what you had 10 years ago?

You say that I should have remembered more clearly what I saw and heard 20 years ago? I’m laughing right now. Brother, I’ve slept a few nights since then. But, I can tell you the general concepts, or ideas, or the gest of what I heard. And, I can remember the gest of what many of the Founders type fellas who were trying to convert me to Dortian Calvinism during that time, and how they would really talk bad about non-five point, non-

Dortian Calvinists. I heard them make statements like…”If you dont believe in Dortian Calvinism then you’re teaching a works salvation.” Or, “Those who dont believe in the TULIP are teaching a man-centered theology rather than a God-centered theology.” Or…the list goes on.

Also, let me just say that I’m not talking about people doing foolish things and upsetting a Church. I’m talking about Dortian Calvinists going into Churches that are not as Reformed with the purpose of reforming them. They went into the Churches knowing that those Churches were not Dortian Calvinist Churches, and they wanted to convert them to it. I know that this is done, and you know that this is done. And, I could give you a lot more examples of this happening. I’ve heard Dortian Calvinists talking about doing this. I’ve seen it more times than I’d like to talk about.

David

To insist on this “balance” that some of you continue to throw around, seems to me, to be specious. Dr. Vines put this conference together and he possesses the freedom, does he not, to invite whom he wishes.

This is why it’s tough to interact with you at times. I didn’t insist on anything and I am not “some of you”. Dr. Vines can do whatever he wants with the conference and I am able to make suggestions with demanding nor insisting. I’ve not said what you are insinuating.

And unless those who continue to insist the five scholars who will present scholarly papers are known for their misrepresentation of Calvinism can produce the goods to show it, I’m baffled precisely why this keeps coming up.

Of course, if Dr. Vines includes in the registration packet, buttons that say “I luv Arminius, Finney’s systematic text and t-shirts with Arminius, Finney and, of course, Billy Graham on them, we might wonder what’s going on.

Oops! That’s your Founders brothers idea about showing up in t-shirts with a prominent Calvinist on it to make a statement. Sorry. How forgetful of me.

How helpful are your above statements? Fight fire with fire? However stupid of a joke that was about wearing said t-shirts, I didn’t make it.

-snip

So, whatever ‘hardshell’ means, I think it at least carries with it the idea of regeneration apart from and prior to faith and repentance.

If you are using the definition of ‘hardshell’ so loosely that it is ‘whatever’ is might mean then that is pretty petty and there is no need for the label. I also would say that ‘hardshell’ could apply to all of those signing onto the Abstracts, 1644 and 1689 (as James White does). So why use the term? Even the BFM2K says that the heart is changed and then the sinner responds.

Now, if you are tempted, John Mark, to want to discuss the cons of what I just said, know it will be you with others. I think this train jumped tracks along time ago.

-snip

Finally, John Mark, concerning James White: I’ll swing by and pick up Bob Ross and we’ll meet you at Starbucks after the conference :^)

Mark

Your first statement was “ Well said. I have attended a Founders Conference in the past. Believe me…it’s a five point, Dortian Calvinists love fest that bashes non-five pointers.”

Then, when the man who runs the very ministry you accuse of bashing others asks for clarification you say it was too long ago. Then why speak of it at all?
And why don’t you call the Founders folks Abstract Calvinists since that’s what’s on the site?

You know some Calvinists today who act and react in certain ways? And? Are you claiming this invalidates Calvinism in some way? Should the unbeliever look to the news stories about pastors, even SBC pastors, concerning their falls into grievous sin as a way to validate or invalidate the Christian faith? Would that be a fair tactic used to discredit Christianity? I certainly don’t think so.

There are ignorant and even stupid acting Calvinists, Arminians, and non-Calvinists, but they alone, based on their actions, should not invalidate nor validate a theological position.

We’re Christians for goodness sake and we will continue to do stupid and ignorant things while claiming the name of Christ, yet not invalidating our great Savior.

Until He returns,
Mark

No problem….we can finish off line or over at your place….

Peter is right to say that Les has been short changed by the “family fued” here.

Blessings,
Chris

I am coming to you, but you have engaged me on my personal blog, so it will be longer for me to re-engage you here.

Peter,
You are on your own.

Blessings,
Tim