Please don’t take my remarks as a negative attack on your initiative. I am really hopeful that the comments can be helpful in your pursuit. I have read through “The Fifth Century Initiative”, and those initiatives are core fundamentals that all believers should seriously consider.

For instance, I would be thrilled to have you or someone like you come into our fellowship convinced of those things. You would be encouraged by us…… and you would be an encouragement to us as well.

Blessings,
Chris

But that is precisely what I appreciated about this statement – that it dealt with essentials without getting into some of the areas of conflict.

Honestly, I don’t think that I am misunderstanding YOU at all. As I have said, I do not doubt your allegiance to Christ. I understand the way that you use the term Baptist and while I would not go as far as you, I understand your logic. The problem is that your use of terms and the juxtaposition of “obedience to Christ’s commands” with being a Baptist becomes problematic in communication and discipleship. As Biblical Baptists, I do not believe that we have to build our case for how right we are by interposing obedience to Christ with being a Baptist. It sets up another layer of language and terminology that is not necessary. Plus, it creates a situation where people think that fidelity to Baptist doctrine is necessarily fidelity to Christ. For you, that might be okay because you are looking at this in a purest sense. But for others who might subtly twist and skew their practice of Baptist doctrine, it would be easy to lead people astray. Our job as pastors and teachers is to call people to fidelity and devotion to Christ alone. If anything, even our excellent doctrine is placed in between the relationship between Jesus and the believer, then we are headed the way of Catholicism and false religions. Christ is the only mediator between God and man. Sola Christus, right?

Again, I do understand what you are doing and logically I am not trying to argue that. I am just saying that in your communication of Baptist Identity, you would be better served to bring Jesus to the forefront so that Baptist Identity can be clearly seen as devotion to Christ alone. I do not know Chris Johnson except for on this blog. But, he is right on target here. You would do well to listen to what he is saying.

I am not a Baptist Identity guy, obviously. I have disagreements with some of your issues. But, I will say that you will better communicate what you are trying to say if you consider what is being said here. I know that you guys love Jesus. But your words make it seem like you love being a Baptist more. You equate the two and do not see any differences. I don’t think that you can say that being a Baptist equals being a Christ follower without doing damage to the Body of Christ and without also putting a wedge between the believer and his Lord.

I believe we are thinking along the same lines. There is not a great divide between our thinking at all. In fact your first point is exactly what I was thinking as I was driving in traffic a few minutes ago. For instance, some would say that church discipline needs to be done to “protect” the church, and some would say that church discipline needs to be done to “reconcile” the church. If one were to obey the command of church discipline both of those thoughts are born out of conviction.

The looming question is which thought (conviction) follows the biblical command?….I would teach that the context of church discipline is “reconciling” the church, while someone down the street may teach it as “protecting” the church. How one puts the primary emphasis is important, even though there are aspects of each in the command. So,… if I am convinced that I am “protecting” the church by “doing” church discipline….then I miss the point of the passage.

In your second point, there is a distinction although I would not consider it “bifurcation”. We do not so much adhere to Christ (even though we try real hard). I would contend that He holds us, He never lets us go, He is the mover, …”because of Him who calls”.

Romans 9:10-11 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; (11) for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

And since it is He who is moving and holding, then I move as a result or consequence. So I agree with you….in that there is not a hint of obedience outside of Christ. But, the obedience is of Christ, as I humbly respond to His truth no matter my conviction. All Glory is due Him and He takes it. The conviction I have may fall into line with the truth as I obey, or it may even change along the way to reflect more of the truth as I mature in Christ.

Blessings,
Chris

1. You seem to think that I am equating “Baptist” with “Christ.” I am not. “Love” cannot be equated with “Christ” because, although Christ is love, He is also much more (righteousness, for example). In the same way, “biblical church discipline” cannot be equated with Christ, or even with obedience to Christ, but it is nevertheless a constituent part of obedience to Christ. To argue for the practice of biblical redemptive church discipline is to argue in favor of obedience to Christ, albeit partially so.

2. You seem to wish to bifurcate Christ and Christ’s commands, as though one must choose between adherence to Christ or obedience to His commands. Yet this is a false dilemma. It is no more valid than the warnings that conservatives would succumb to bibliolatry, as though Christ can be set apart ontologically from what Christ has said, written, and preserved. On the contrary, my faithful obedience to what Christ has commanded is, according to Christ Himself, prima facie evidence of my love for Him.

3. You seem to think that I am arguing in favor of denominational alignment with the Southern Baptist Convention. Although I am in favor of such and practice it myself, that is a separate question. It is my conviction that a great many within the SBC need to give more careful attention to these matters, and it is my further conviction that one could experience renewal on all the points that I have mentioned as an independent Baptist church, with or without including the word “Baptist” in the name of your church.

That sounds like a “teaser” to me…. should be fun!

About being what you say….. “I will not be disobedient to my convictions that I clearly derive”……look at what you have just said. The opposite of the Apostle Paul……

Galatians 2:20-21 “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. (21) “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”

Romans 7:20-25 “But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. (21) I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. (22) For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, (23) but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. (24) Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? (25) Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.”

I understand that we should not act schizophrenic, and think one thing and do another….that would be dishonest to ourselves. But being obedient to your convictions is wrought with disaster if God (by way of the Apostle Paul) is correct. God is clear that Christ is where our dependency lay, not convictions. Everybody has convictions…some to the good,…others to the bad. Even the good guys have convictions that go astray…Paul again makes that point. The degree to which I grunt out my allegiance to my convictions is just what Isaiah warns …..

Isaiah 64:6-8 “For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. (7) There is no one who calls on Your name, Who arouses himself to take hold of You; For You have hidden Your face from us And have delivered us into the power of our iniquities. (8) But now, O LORD, You are our Father, We are the clay, and You our potter; And all of us are the work of Your hand.”

I can honestly say that my convictions are stronger than your convictions. That doesn’t really say a lot ….but I still believe it. (You see what I mean). Convictions conveniently lead me back to me….because it is what “me” wants. If I truly care about the word of God, I will try somehow desperately to throw “me” at the feet of Jesus, so that He can do what only He can do,….that the Spirit can supply what only the Spirit can supply,…so that I can yield as He teaches me how to yield. May I be made low…so He will be made High! (Now that is the “Baptist” type stuff I remember and want my kids to know).

Blessings,
Chris

If you are having some difficulty with this post, you are going to love my next post on my blog. :>)

As Brother Bart has articulated clearly, what is the difference in saying ‘being disobedient to the commands of Christ‘ and saying, ‘I will not be disobedient to my convictions that I clearly derive from the Scriptures that we more affectionately refer to as our Baptist Identity‘?

Blessings,
Tim