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Interview with Dr. Bill Wagner
Posted by Scott Gordon | March 7, 2008
We are privileged today to bring you this interview with Dr. Bill Wagner. Dr. Wagner is another of the candidates who will be nominated for President of the Southern Baptist Convention when we meet in Indianapolis this June.
In an article from Baptist Press, we have learned that Dr. Wagner formerly was a professor of missions at Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary and before that an International Mission Board missionary for 31 years in Europe, the Middle East and North Africa. He served as SBC first vice president from 2003-04. He also is the pastor of a small San Francisco-area church, Snyder Lane Baptist, and the author of the 2004 book, “How Islam Plans to Change the World,” published by Kregel. He says he has a passion for reaching Muslims with the Gospel.
Baptist Press also reported that Dr. Wagner received his bachelor’s degree from the University of New Mexico and his master of divinity degree from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Texas. He also holds a doctor of missiology degree from Fuller Theological Seminary in California and a doctor of theology degree from the University of South Africa.
Dr. Wagner is married to Sally, and they have two children, Candice and Mark.
We hope you will enjoy listening to this interview and will find it helpful as you consider the man for whom you will vote to lead our Convention in the following year. For more information on Dr. Bill Wagner, you can link to his website here.
Bill Wagner Interview: Topics: Audio, Interviews, SBC Issues |
March 7th, 2008 at 11:27 am
Thank you sbctoday for the interviews that you are providing. They are proving to be very informative and this will allow people to make wise choices in our next president of the SBC.
I want express my disagreement with Dr. Wagner’s assesment of the evangelism fervor of those that embrace the 5 tenants of Calvinism. While it may be true that some calvinists may not embrace a “strong fervor” for evangelism, the same can be said about those that disagree with calvinism.
My own personal experience would also disagree with Dr. Wagner’s assessment. The current church where I serve serves as an example. No one can deny our fervor for evangelism. Our church, which has a budget of more than 3 million gives over 22% to mission endeavors (Cooperative Program, church planting, and other missionary organizations. Our church is constantly sending people out on missions all over the world.
I think the “lack of evangelism” that exists among calvinists is simply not true…or at least a misrepresentation of the majority of those that do embrace cavlinism.
March 7th, 2008 at 11:58 am
Adam,
I, too, would disagree with vague generalizations about those who espouse various biblically consistent views of soteriology. To make that blanket assertion about Calvinists is unfortunate for anybody, including Dr. Wagner. I am not saying that someone will never run into a Calvinist which would fit the stereotypical assertion. I am saying that I do not believe the stereotype to be the norm. I would have the same problem with someone from the Reformed persuasion calling all non-Calvinists and Arminians, heretics. As I have commented elsewhere, I attended college with someone like that. Yikes!
Thanks for your comment, Adam.
Sola Gratia!
March 7th, 2008 at 11:25 pm
I am a Calvinist, and I think concerns about the evangelistic zeal of Calvinists is fair game.
I have seen many who are passionate about the “doctrines of grace” but are not so enthusiastic about the actual proclamation of grace.
A blanket statement about Calvinists is unfair, perhaps, but we who believe in the sovereignty of God in salvation should be realistic that many have used the doctrine as an excuse for spiritual laziness.
Just my opinion.
March 8th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
let’s see here.
-80% of SBC pastors are something other than “5 point Calvinist”
-Baptism rates are drastically down while population growth rates are drastically up in the US
-”5 point Calvinists” are the ones not motivated missionally
Are you kidding me? How can such charges be justified? Is this not like the pot calling the kettle black? Is Calvinism really the problem facing the missional witness of the SBC?
March 8th, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Brother IF,
While at least one self-avowed Calvinist seems to endorse Dr. Wagner because he has some pretty doggone good ideas, this post by Brother Scott is not an endorsement on the part of SBC Today. I will agree with you that his open ended statements that has no credibility are something should cause concerns.
Blessings,
Tim
March 8th, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Tim~~Shucks, just as I was finishing the last drafts of my final posts on Critical Criteria Characteristic of the SBC President, you go and link to G&T and I find out that Wagner has busted up one of my points from the last post:
“If he thinks he’s the best man we need to lead us, I’d rather he not. I’d rather see a man who is hesitant than a man too eager.
“Do not boast of [yourself and] tomorrow, for you know not what a day may bring forth. Let another man praise you, and not your own mouth; a stranger, and not your own lips.” Proverbs 27:1,2.”
A CAMPAIGN SITE? Oh my word! this is soooo very over the top. Now we’re gonna play politics above and beyond the call of Christian duty. I’d say someone needs to begin talking up the other candidate and let their voices be heard as to which they will support. Let’s go boys.
We need some more interviews from the other guy. We need some sermons from which we can gain a better perspective. We need some home movies and some great soundbites. We need some pamphlets and fliers. Anyone a designer out there? Can you make us some bumper stickers?
This is amazing. Don’t you love it? Only in America.
selahV
March 8th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
selah,
maybe they will next have someone making all of those recorded calls to every church in the sbc asking for your vote?
david
March 8th, 2008 at 8:25 pm
Brother Tim,
I was surprised of the glowing remarks by brother Wade as well.
What I would like to see is a missionary indeed…and one who understands who is on the team and who isn’t.
Some of the most missional, innovative, theologically conservative, creative, devout and energetic pastors in the SBC are “Calvinists”…why on earth there are so many leaders in our Convention taking aim at them is totally beyond me. Can you imagine a company acting like that? Lol!
I’m going to attend only one more state or national convention meeting and have my soteriology (and in many ways, my love of the Lord and commitment to His commission) unfairly bashed. Just one more…that’s it. After that I’ll get more intentionally involved in the Acts 29 network or something and attend their conferences.
March 9th, 2008 at 8:27 am
Dave Miller has made a very truthful statement here. He makes many.
Vote Cox this year. Two years from now, vote Miller.
Yet, hopefully, Jesus will return before June and we will not need to vote. Those who are left around to vote may vote for whomever they want. It will matter none whatsoever to me.
cb
March 9th, 2008 at 10:23 pm
I haven’t had a chance to listen to all of your interviews, but this one was handled very well. I think the questions give Bill a chance to make his points.
Thanks,
Greg Harvey
March 9th, 2008 at 11:43 pm
What is wrong with a campaign web site? The old system where the next SBC president is decided by a small, select group behind closed doors is a better system? I would rather there be a campaign web site so I can know what each candidate thinks and proposes BEFORE they get elected. Now if big money went into campaigning that would be wrong. But until the SBC President gets the power to regulate business that ain’t going to happen.
March 10th, 2008 at 5:05 am
Brother R. Grannemann,
While your comment seems to be acceptable on the surface, I believe underneath you would be the first to speak against people posted outside the convention promoting a certain candidate by handing out brochures and asking for votes.
This, I believe, is the next logical step when one has a “campaign manager”, produces a “campaign website”, and presents a “campaign platform” for consideration. As Christians we should be informed voters, no doubt. However, where is the leading of God in all of this? I mean, have we come to the point that we do not need God’s help because a slick website and some press coverage has convinced me that this is God’s man?
Blessings,
Tim
March 10th, 2008 at 6:48 am
Brother Tim and Brother R.,
I am not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand it does seem a bit too ambitious, presumptuous and possibly arrogant to promote ones self and credentials in this way…for that office. While we are a Convention and not even a true Denomination and while we are certainly nothing like Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy we are still a missional organization with spiritual ends in mind. Such campaigning does not promote humility which ought to be a primary quality the SBC should desire in a president. One with no self esteem would be preferable.
On the other hand, I do appreciate the idea that someone feels called to an office and has a vision for it. I like the idea of a leader standing up and saying “here am I, send me”.
But over all…I don’t like it and I hope and pray that the office of president does not become something which ambitious and self confident men overtly exert themselves to grasp. I don’t want campaign promises or debates and I certainly don’t want people passing out flyers and holding rally’s before the Convention for crying out loud…which is not out of the question once this kind of stuff becomes accepted.
March 10th, 2008 at 7:59 am
Nothing is wrong with a campaign website. Dr. Cox has had one up for weeks. http://www.frankcox.org.
March 10th, 2008 at 8:04 am
sorry the link seems not to work, http://www.frankcox.org hopefully that will work.
March 10th, 2008 at 8:05 am
Tim R. and Fox,
Does one pray better without information? Are unqualified people eliminated by voters without an awareness of credentials? A campaign at its best is a promotion of ideas. Let candidates put those ideas out there where blogs can examine them. Quite frankly, its a service.
I will get worried about high dollar, glitzy SBC campaigns when I see one. The way to deal with it, if it ever happens, is to make the power of the SBC presidency even less.
March 10th, 2008 at 8:18 am
Brother Grannemann,
It’s not the issue of information being offered…it’s who is the one doing the initiating of the “campaign”. If I asked brother Tim Rogers for his permission to nominate him, and he prays about it and gives me his blessing…and I announce that I’m going to nominate him…then there ought to be information provided about him. Maybe I would even design a website or something to make that information available. But the initiative ought not be from the candidate…how can one be humble yet self promoting at the same time? Let others do the promoting.
It’s an issue of self confidence, self esteem and an apparent lack of humility which concerns me…and I don’t care if a hundred men are doing it, I’ll never like it. My vote will go to the man who is not promoting himself every time. In my opinion, that office is for men who desire it.
March 10th, 2008 at 8:19 am
correction:
In my opinion that office is for men who DO NOT desire it.
March 10th, 2008 at 8:37 am
Fox,
Humility as a quality which influences your vote is a very good one. I would vote, to some extent, on that same basis since I believe humility is a quality of good leaders. But if someone knows they have something to offer and holds back waiting for someone else to recognize it, then that is wrong. I think Bill Wagner has something to offer (even if it is just “debating” his ideas, but quite possible much more as a fine leader of the SBC nationally), and it would have been wrong for him not to put his name up for consideration as he felt the prompting of the Spirit.
March 10th, 2008 at 8:42 am
Brother Grannemann,
such things ought to be left to the leading of the Spirit I believe. let the Spirit doing the exaulting.
March 10th, 2008 at 8:54 am
Maybe I am just being naive but when did the SBC President become anything more than the convention moderator? When did the man running for President start to feel that they had to have an agenda? I know about the appointive authority of the SBC President, but really guys, now we have to have a “campaign?” I am all for multiple men running but the idea of having to have websites and such just smacks to me of worldliness.
Wes
March 10th, 2008 at 9:12 am
Good Monday Morning, fellas! Seems my aversion to all-out campaigning for the office of the SBC has sparked some conversation. You guys are doing a great job!
May I say it again?
“If he thinks he’s the best man we need to lead us, I’d rather he not. I’d rather see a man who is hesitant than a man too eager.
“Do not boast of [yourself and] tomorrow, for you know not what a day may bring forth. Let another man praise you, and not your own mouth; a stranger, and not your own lips.” Proverbs 27:1,2.”
Let me clarify that statement a bit. There is a vast difference between a man who puts forth information OTHERS have written about him in order to help others get to know him and a literally campaigning for the office of President.
Dr. Wagner is running for the office. He’s thought about it for years. Ever since he read a quote by Calvin Miller contemplating why a SB career missionary had never been the president of our convention. Dr. Wagner repeatedly says he is “running” for the office. He has four reasons for running:
1. He’s thought about “a” career missionary running for the office for years.
2. He thinks the SBC has been neglectful of the West and North because they’ve never elected anyone west of Texas and north of Maryland.
3. He thinks we need we need a pastor of a small church to be president.
4. He thinks we need someone with cross-culture studies and expertise.
He has contemplated his run for years. He has met his criteria. AND he gives us his agenda if elected president. Uh, “the ways of man are right in his own eyes”. He’s got the office all figured out, wrapped up in a nice little package and tied up with ribbons of his own ideas. He states these are “some of the things I will be doing if elected president”. AND there will be more information to come.
Dr. Wagner’s site is an ongoing advertisement campaign for his ambitious desires to lead us in the direction “he” thinks we should go. To be fair, some of his ideas, while lofty and daring, are not bad. Nor are they without merit. I’m just having a hard time seeing his humility for all the “I’s” in his pride.
When Isaiah said, “Here am I, send me”, he acknowledged how little he was in the scheme of things. While he was willing to go, he recognized how little he was qualified to go.
Just an opinion from afar. selahV
March 10th, 2008 at 9:12 am
Wes,
You make an outstanding point! Unfortunately, the politics of the SBC may become more important than the mission of the church. It would be wise for the leadership within the SBC to try and turn it the other direction.
Good thinking,
Blessings,
Chris
March 10th, 2008 at 9:51 am
Chris,
You wrote; “Unfortunately, the politics of the SBC may become more important than the mission of the church.”
Oh, may our gracious God forbid such audacity of men!
March 10th, 2008 at 10:51 am
Wes,
What I have found to be true is that God is always about His mission and He is certainly not interested in politics one bit.
There are a great many Baptist churches that are obedient servants to our Lord - day in and day out. The SBC is made up of those churches (called-out ones), but there are also a great deal of Baptist’s that enjoy politics much more than their Lord. God’s work is not about the legacy of the SBC,….it is about Christ and His Church alone.
Blessings,
Chris
March 10th, 2008 at 11:37 am
Should we choose a pastor who doesn’t want it, never thought about it, and has no ideas for doing it?
Perhaps we should judge Dr. Wagner by his record and vision rather than casting suspicion on his motives and disqualifying him because he wants the job.
If you think that current and past presidents didn’t really want the job you are probably being naive.
March 10th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
Brother Bill,
of course on some level a man should have the desire to serve. the question is about the method of campaigning and self promotion. the overtness of grasping for a position of significant influence in the nation does not line up with the type of humility one ought to desire in a spiritual leader. May St. Ambrose serve as an example for what we would desire in SBC leadership.
so of course former leaders and presidents had the desire…as a good Calvinist I know that people ultimately do what they REALLY want to do (the strongest desire of their heart at any given moment). but it’s the self promotion that is distasteful I believe.
Lord, give us another St. Ambrose!
March 10th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
I trust the very things which are thought to disqualify Dr. Wagner are held consistent and are thought to disqualify Mike Huckabee from the nation’s presidency.
March 10th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
what?
not at all. there is a difference between the offices and that’s exactly the point.
March 10th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
Paul was at times the most humble of men. And yet he could say “be imitators of me” and “follow my example.” Shameless self promotion? My point is let’s not blow this out of proportion or dismiss this guy out of hand because he wants the job. And let us certainly not dismiss him because he is not the anointed successor to the throne.
March 10th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Chris,
It is so true that many of our Baptist folk are a lot more interested in politics then they should be. And, I suppose I should say that I am not opposed to politics per se. With the system we have in place (a system I believe serves us well, BTW), politics is necessary and healthy. Thank God that we had people in the 70’s and 80’s who knew our conventional system and used it to return us to the scriptures. As with anything else, it only becomes sinful when it becomes our obsession.
Brother Bill,
I think there is a difference between someone saying “I am willing to serve if nominated and elected” and someone saying “hey, vote for me because I have the best platform.” I also think there is a difference between the President of a nation, and the moderator of the SBC.
Grace to All,
Wes
March 10th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
Brother Wes,
I think you understand my intent. Politics are politics, ….but, the Gospel ministry is another thing.
When the Apostle Paul was in leadership among the Jerusalem Convention (JC), he was really about preaching the Gospel and getting the resources to preach the Gospel.
It was difficult to get him to divert into politics,….Peter tried at one point,…but Paul understood the calling of the Spirit.
Galatians 1:10-14 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ. (11) For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. (12) For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. (13) For you have heard of my former manner of life in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it; (14) and I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my countrymen, being more extremely zealous for my ancestral traditions.
I am praying that whoever is interested in leading the SBC, it is not leading it for the purpose of propping up the SBC or being extremely zealous for the traditions of the SBC. I am looking for the man who is zealous for the Gospel. The SBC will be ok, if the Gospel is the man’s undeniable purpose.
I am looking for the guy who is gushing with the Gospel, and not just using it as a piece of rhetoric to win a job.
Blessings,
Chris
March 10th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
Scott,
Thanks for the info……
My contention with Dr. Wagner is that He does not even approach the Gospel until point number 7 in his “Contract” that he would like to make with the SBC. And even when he includes the Gospel, it is not a direct reference.
It appears the Gospel has been shuffled back among the “stuff” that appears to make the SBC strong…..and there is a lot of stuff to talk about in his first six points. That is an unfortunate thing! Unfortunately, he is missing the main point of ministry, “the Gospel”.
Blessings,
Chris
March 10th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Chris,
“The SBC will be ok, if the Gospel is the man’s undeniable purpose.”
That is not only true for the SBC, but for the local church. Paul’s obsession was “Jesus Christ, and Him crucified!” The SBC is just a tool for God to use as He sees fit - and only for as long as He deems necessary. I think we’re on the same page too. The politics will take care of itself as each of us as Believers submits himself/ herself to the Lord.
Grace to all,
Wes
March 10th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
Chris,
I think a reasonable reading of Dr. Wagner’s contract will see the Gospel in most of the points. In any document by a Southern Baptist for Southern Baptists mention of outreach, missions, evangelism, influence for Christ, etc surely can be seen as being about the Gospel even if that word isn’t used. Points 4,5, and 6 aren’t strictly about the Gospel but most of them are.
Wes, call me cynical but I’ve seen too much false humility to be impressed by “I will serve if nominated”. I think the honesty of “I want the job” is refreshing. Confidence and passion are not necessarily pride.
March 10th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
Brother Bill,
I don’t doubt that the Gospel is in there somewhere, but I would prefer to see it front and center. I think you can add all those things (missions, outreach, evangelism, influence for Christ, etc.), but it seems the preaching of the Gospel takes a backseat to programs, organization or the next best marketing scheme these days… I am looking for the man that sees the preaching of the Gospel as the only actual power and means.
And I am with you on the desire….I don’t mind a guy aspiring to lead….just make the Gospel front and center and often.
Blessings,
Chris
March 11th, 2008 at 7:23 am
Chris,
Fair enough. I for one would love to see the president of the SBC lead us to stop wasting time with resolutions that don’t impact the gospel like global warming, supreme court, alcohol, hate crimes legislation, abandoning public schools, etc. The majority of resolutions from 2006 are a good example. How about the SBC messengers pass one overarching resolution that says that Southern Baptists should seek to be good citizens and leave it at that. Then each individual can judge and live out what that means.
March 11th, 2008 at 8:13 am
Brother Bill,
That is an excellent observation concerning the resolutions that seem to capture the interest of so many of the Baptist’s.
One of the main reasons that resolutions are so prevalent and in many cases are without scriptural context is because the Law is being taught without the Gospel. Sometimes I am not sure if Pastors really know the difference. If you teach Law (commands) all the time… without the remedy…. you end up with lopsided immature believers that want to talk about what needs to be achieved, while losing focus on the one (Christ) that has achieved.
When we begin to see resolutions involving the true Gospel (Remedy) rise to the surface more often…. that will be some evidence that the seminaries and pastorates are once again focused on the preaching of the Gospel. The disciples in the pews only reveal what they know!
Blessings,
Chris
March 11th, 2008 at 8:26 am
Chris: “If you teach Law (commands) all the time… without the remedy…. you end up with lopsided immature believers that want to talk about what needs to be achieved, while losing focus on the one (Christ) that has achieved.”
We could all do well to “pause and think about that” statement. All we have in Christ Jesus gives us all we need to counter the evil in this world. If only we could all see this. Jesus opens my eyes more and more every day. And when He does, the tears of my soul cleanse me from all iniquity. Oh for that glorious day when I shall cry no more and there shall be no more tears. selahV
March 11th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
Dr. Wagner,
I am a calvinist pastor of a church in McCalla, Alabama. Recently we introduced our new vision for 2008 and beyond and the second point of our vision is “To Do Biblical Missions and Evangelism.” Our church is very much committed to both spreading the gospel and also planting churches. So it is not fair for you to assume that just because someone may be a calvinist when it comes to theology that they are not evangelistic. I would direct you to Ed Stetzer who works for LIFEWAY in the research department and their study about calvinists in the SBC. We do care about the gospel and evangelism.
NEAL
March 11th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
Sister SelahV,
You are so right,… He is our all in all.
Ephesians 1:13-14 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, (14) who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Blessings,
Chris
April 10th, 2008 at 11:32 am
Hi Neal, sounds great…. I guess Bill is not condemning us but simply seems to say we will focus more on that area…. it’s how we take the message.
Secondly, about being humble… well I guess he desires to serve, if those who vote considers him. He is not yet a President, he is only saying he would like to be if considered.
I guess we should rather compare what the possible candidates will bring new ideas and perspective to the Presidentship rather than keep judging Bill.
Blessings,
Paul
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:31 pm
[...] Interview with Dr. Bill Wagner [...]
June 1st, 2008 at 7:52 am
It might be interesting information for Dr. Wagner that the seminary that leads the way in seeing its students embrace Calvinism is the same seminary that leads the way in sending students to the IMB!
Southern Seminary!!
July 11th, 2008 at 9:18 am
[...] continue to heat up. Recently a nominee for the presidency of the Southern Baptist Convention brought up the old charge that the doctrine of predestination “has a tendency to blunt the sharp edge of [...]