Comments on: Beauty and the Beast – Part Two http://sbctoday.com/2008/03/06/beauty-and-the-beast-part-two/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=beauty-and-the-beast-part-two A forum for Baptists to dialogue about how best to fulfill God’s calling in our lives. Thu, 17 May 2012 02:00:58 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: selahV http://sbctoday.com/2008/03/06/beauty-and-the-beast-part-two/#comment-2513 selahV Sun, 09 Mar 2008 02:35:45 +0000 http://sbctoday.com/2008/03/06/beauty-and-the-beast-part-two/#comment-2513 David Brumbelow: so glad you had time to drop in and add a bit of meat to my stew. That is what I mean by what Southern Baptist believe "generally". As long as I've been a Southern Baptist, 51 years, that is what I have been taught. Abstention. Did all Baptists believe this and hold to it? No. But the Southern Baptist majority did. And still do. I rather like the idea of my president holding to it also. Peter does have some great articles on wine. I hope he has opportunity to continue those soon. I'm itching to see what he's uncovered regarding the New Testament. He's such a tease. selahV David Brumbelow: so glad you had time to drop in and add a bit of meat to my stew. That is what I mean by what Southern Baptist believe “generally”. As long as I’ve been a Southern Baptist, 51 years, that is what I have been taught. Abstention. Did all Baptists believe this and hold to it? No. But the Southern Baptist majority did. And still do. I rather like the idea of my president holding to it also.

Peter does have some great articles on wine. I hope he has opportunity to continue those soon. I’m itching to see what he’s uncovered regarding the New Testament. He’s such a tease. selahV

]]> By: David R. Brumbelow http://sbctoday.com/2008/03/06/beauty-and-the-beast-part-two/#comment-2512 David R. Brumbelow Sun, 09 Mar 2008 00:50:25 +0000 http://sbctoday.com/2008/03/06/beauty-and-the-beast-part-two/#comment-2512 SelahV, Great post on SBC president. I wanted to add my agreement to your comments on alcohol. It is not, as some have said, that the majority of the SBC overrules biblical teaching about beverage alcohol. Rather, it is that the huge majority of the SBC believes the Bible teaches and speaks against it. If you want the reasons you can start with an excellent 2006 Baptist Press (bpnews.net) article about abstinence from alcohol by Paige Patterson. Also, as David (volfan) pointed out, Peter Lumpkins blog has several great articles on the subject. (Sorry, I don’t know how to do links.) It is a fact that the biblical word “wine” was used in ancient times and in the Bible to refer to intoxicating, and non-intoxicating drink. To insist that Jesus made intoxicating wine is assuming at least as much as those who say that what He made was non-intoxicating new wine. Yes, some Christian folks believe the Bible teaches you are free to take mind altering drugs for recreational use. But that is not what Southern Baptists believe. There are good Christian folks who don’t believe the Bible teaches eternal security. The huge majority of Southern Baptists, however, do believe the Bible teaches it. Try running for SBC president saying you don’t believe in eternal security and see how far you get. Sorry I’m late to the post. I’ve been away a couple of days doing spiritual stuff :-). David R. Brumbelow SelahV,
Great post on SBC president.

I wanted to add my agreement to your comments on alcohol. It is not, as some have said, that the majority of the SBC overrules biblical teaching about beverage alcohol. Rather, it is that the huge majority of the SBC believes the Bible teaches and speaks against it. If you want the reasons you can start with an excellent 2006 Baptist Press (bpnews.net) article about abstinence from alcohol by Paige Patterson. Also, as David (volfan) pointed out, Peter Lumpkins blog has several great articles on the subject. (Sorry, I don’t know how to do links.)

It is a fact that the biblical word “wine” was used in ancient times and in the Bible to refer to intoxicating, and non-intoxicating drink. To insist that Jesus made intoxicating wine is assuming at least as much as those who say that what He made was non-intoxicating new wine.

Yes, some Christian folks believe the Bible teaches you are free to take mind altering drugs for recreational use. But that is not what Southern Baptists believe. There are good Christian folks who don’t believe the Bible teaches eternal security. The huge majority of Southern Baptists, however, do believe the Bible teaches it. Try running for SBC president saying you don’t believe in eternal security and see how far you get.

Sorry I’m late to the post. I’ve been away a couple of days doing spiritual stuff :-).
David R. Brumbelow

]]> By: volfan007 http://sbctoday.com/2008/03/06/beauty-and-the-beast-part-two/#comment-2511 volfan007 Sat, 08 Mar 2008 21:57:05 +0000 http://sbctoday.com/2008/03/06/beauty-and-the-beast-part-two/#comment-2511 peter, is there a way to give jack a clear, concise, short answer on this one? or, should he just go and read your old posts on this? david peter,

is there a way to give jack a clear, concise, short answer on this one? or, should he just go and read your old posts on this?

david

]]> By: volfan007 http://sbctoday.com/2008/03/06/beauty-and-the-beast-part-two/#comment-2510 volfan007 Sat, 08 Mar 2008 13:21:03 +0000 http://sbctoday.com/2008/03/06/beauty-and-the-beast-part-two/#comment-2510 jack, if you are really interested in studying this, then may i suggest that you to peterlumpkins.typepad.com and look up all the studies and the comments that are there. it goes into this subject very extensively. it is indeed a good study...with a lot of good discussion. david jack,

if you are really interested in studying this, then may i suggest that you to

peterlumpkins.typepad.com

and look up all the studies and the comments that are there. it goes into this subject very extensively. it is indeed a good study…with a lot of good discussion.

david

]]> By: Jack http://sbctoday.com/2008/03/06/beauty-and-the-beast-part-two/#comment-2509 Jack Sat, 08 Mar 2008 05:52:56 +0000 http://sbctoday.com/2008/03/06/beauty-and-the-beast-part-two/#comment-2509 “We think that you are wrong…very wrong…in your interpretations. drinking intoxicating wine for pleasure…to get high…is at best foolish…unwise, and at some point it actually becomes sinful. that’s not extra biblical teaching….that’s biblical teaching.” I can’t speak for others, but – having spent 20 years in wine-producing regions- I drink wine not to “get high” but because I enjoy its taste and appreciate the unique character of different types of wines from different vineyards. And while we both agree that the Bible teaches against drunkenness I also see passage after passage that affirms its use for pleasure: “Go to the place which the Lord your God chooses, and spend the money for whatever you desire. Oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves, and you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice.” Deuteronomy 14:22-29 “Go eat your bread with enjoyment, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do” Ecclesiastes 9:7 “Thou doest cause the grass to grow for the cattle .... and wine to gladden the heart of man.” Psalm 104 14 --- “Do you not see that there could be two kinds of wine mentioned in the bible? Intoxicating wine and wine that is not intoxicating?” I’m sorry, I’ve missed the references to intoxicating and non-intoxicating wines during my studies of the scriptures. Please feel free to point those out to me. Blessings, -jack- “We think that you are wrong…very wrong…in your interpretations. drinking intoxicating wine for pleasure…to get high…is at best foolish…unwise, and at some point it actually becomes sinful. that’s not extra biblical teaching….that’s biblical teaching.”

I can’t speak for others, but – having spent 20 years in wine-producing regions- I drink wine not to “get high” but because I enjoy its taste and appreciate the unique character of different types of wines from different vineyards.

And while we both agree that the Bible teaches against drunkenness I also see passage after passage that affirms its use for pleasure:

“Go to the place which the Lord your God chooses, and spend the money for whatever you desire. Oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves, and you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice.” Deuteronomy 14:22-29

“Go eat your bread with enjoyment, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do” Ecclesiastes 9:7

“Thou doest cause the grass to grow for the cattle …. and wine to gladden the heart of man.” Psalm 104 14

—

“Do you not see that there could be two kinds of wine mentioned in the bible? Intoxicating wine and wine that is not intoxicating?”

I’m sorry, I’ve missed the references to intoxicating and non-intoxicating wines during my studies of the scriptures. Please feel free to point those out to me.

Blessings,

-jack-

]]> By: volfan007 http://sbctoday.com/2008/03/06/beauty-and-the-beast-part-two/#comment-2508 volfan007 Sat, 08 Mar 2008 04:50:40 +0000 http://sbctoday.com/2008/03/06/beauty-and-the-beast-part-two/#comment-2508 jack, we think that you are wrong...very wrong...in your interpretations. drinking intoxicating wine for pleasure...to get high...is at best foolish...unwise, and at some point it actually becomes sinful. that's not extra biblical teaching....that's biblical teaching. do you not see that there could be two kinds of wine mentioned in the bible? intoxicating wine and wine that is not intoxicating? david jack,

we think that you are wrong…very wrong…in your interpretations. drinking intoxicating wine for pleasure…to get high…is at best foolish…unwise, and at some point it actually becomes sinful. that’s not extra biblical teaching….that’s biblical teaching.

do you not see that there could be two kinds of wine mentioned in the bible? intoxicating wine and wine that is not intoxicating?

david

]]> By: Jack http://sbctoday.com/2008/03/06/beauty-and-the-beast-part-two/#comment-2507 Jack Sat, 08 Mar 2008 03:10:02 +0000 http://sbctoday.com/2008/03/06/beauty-and-the-beast-part-two/#comment-2507 Tim: The only way one can arrive at the conclusion that drinking wine is a sin is to ignore that scripture that says Jesus drank and produced wine plus ignore six books of the Old Testament that refer to wine as a "Gift from God." Drunkeness - on the other hand - according to scripture clearly is a sin. One could just as easily use your reasoning to say that I cannot argue that abstinance is wise and be faithful to scripture (however I have no such problem) - so we'll have to agree to disagree. -jack- Tim:

The only way one can arrive at the conclusion that drinking wine is a sin is to ignore that scripture that says Jesus drank and produced wine plus ignore six books of the Old Testament that refer to wine as a “Gift from God.”

Drunkeness – on the other hand – according to scripture clearly is a sin.

One could just as easily use your reasoning to say that I cannot argue that abstinance is wise and be faithful to scripture (however I have no such problem) – so we’ll have to agree to disagree.

-jack-

]]> By: Tim Rogers http://sbctoday.com/2008/03/06/beauty-and-the-beast-part-two/#comment-2506 Tim Rogers Sat, 08 Mar 2008 02:29:43 +0000 http://sbctoday.com/2008/03/06/beauty-and-the-beast-part-two/#comment-2506 Brother Jack, You have a theology problem with your logic. You say; "<i>Can we remain faithful to scripture and teach that abstinence from alcohol is wise? Yes. Can we remain faithful to scripture and teach that drinking alcohol is sin? No. </i> Therein lies your theological flaw. If we can say Scripture teaches it is wise to abstain, then we say that the Scripture does not teach to abstain, then we have placed a contradiction in Scripture, IMHO. If Scripture teaches it is wise, then it teaches that is the road to follow. Blessings, Tim Brother Jack,

You have a theology problem with your logic. You say; “Can we remain faithful to scripture and teach that abstinence from alcohol is wise?

Yes.

Can we remain faithful to scripture and teach that drinking alcohol is sin?

No.

Therein lies your theological flaw. If we can say Scripture teaches it is wise to abstain, then we say that the Scripture does not teach to abstain, then we have placed a contradiction in Scripture, IMHO. If Scripture teaches it is wise, then it teaches that is the road to follow.

Blessings,
Tim

]]> By: Jack http://sbctoday.com/2008/03/06/beauty-and-the-beast-part-two/#comment-2505 Jack Sat, 08 Mar 2008 01:24:27 +0000 http://sbctoday.com/2008/03/06/beauty-and-the-beast-part-two/#comment-2505 “Jack, the bible is not being over ruled by the sbc….lol. let me ask you something….do you believe that Jesus was also a glutton? jack, to be accused of things is not the same as actually doing them. Jesus was accused of being a drunkard and a GLUTTON. again, do you think that Jesus was a glutton? i mean, you seem to be so ready to accept that he actually drank intoxicating wine….do you also think that He was gluttonous and committed sin? –David/Volfan007” Volfan: I neither think that Jesus was a glutton or a drunkard, however the bible teaches that “The Son of man came eating and drinking.” Being without sin he neither ate nor drank to excess. As for being “so ready to accept that he actually drank intoxicating wine” I can only refer you to the scriptures which are totally true and trustworthy. They reveal the principals by which God judges us and are the supreme standard by which all human conduct and religious opinions should be tried (see Baptist Faith & Message 2000). --- “Jack, I’m sorry. I went back and read my post and comments. I don’t see where I elevated the choice to abstain from alcohol as a commandment from God. There are only ten of those that I can see. The one that may fit is not to have any idols before me. When an argument for something as unproductive to society as alcohol has proven itself to be, I think it becomes an obsession worth considering as idolatrous at worst and irrational at least. Just my opinion on something I find less likely worth defending in a public forum. –SelahV” SelahV and others: Can we remain faithful to scripture and teach that abstinence from alcohol is wise? Yes. Can we remain faithful to scripture and teach that abstinence from alcohol is a command from God? No. Can we remain faithful to scripture and teach that drunkenness is sin? Yes. Can we remain faithful to scripture and teach that drinking alcohol is sin? No. I lost my father to alcoholism when I was six and have tended to both the living and the dead at alcohol-related accident and crime scenes as an adult. I understand the passion and the wisdom of those who choose or advise abstinence. -However, I have also tasted the bitter fruit of extra-biblical legalism and have seen it drive too many from a relationship to Christ. I realize that what I am posting on this subject is not popular, but it is scriptural. If that is an obsession, so be it. Tim, Selah & others: I too appreciate the grace all have shown during this discussion. Thank you. -jack- “Jack, the bible is not being over ruled by the sbc….lol. let me ask you something….do you believe that Jesus was also a glutton? jack, to be accused of things is not the same as actually doing them. Jesus was accused of being a drunkard and a GLUTTON. again, do you think that Jesus was a glutton? i mean, you seem to be so ready to accept that he actually drank intoxicating wine….do you also think that He was gluttonous and committed sin? –David/Volfan007”

Volfan:

I neither think that Jesus was a glutton or a drunkard, however the bible teaches that “The Son of man came eating and drinking.” Being without sin he neither ate nor drank to excess.

As for being “so ready to accept that he actually drank intoxicating wine” I can only refer you to the scriptures which are totally true and trustworthy. They reveal the principals by which God judges us and are the supreme standard by which all human conduct and religious opinions should be tried (see Baptist Faith & Message 2000).

—

“Jack, I’m sorry. I went back and read my post and comments. I don’t see where I elevated the choice to abstain from alcohol as a commandment from God. There are only ten of those that I can see. The one that may fit is not to have any idols before me. When an argument for something as unproductive to society as alcohol has proven itself to be, I think it becomes an obsession worth considering as idolatrous at worst and irrational at least. Just my opinion on something I find less likely worth defending in a public forum. –SelahV”

SelahV and others:

Can we remain faithful to scripture and teach that abstinence from alcohol is wise?

Yes.

Can we remain faithful to scripture and teach that abstinence from alcohol is a command from God?

No.

Can we remain faithful to scripture and teach that drunkenness is sin?

Yes.

Can we remain faithful to scripture and teach that drinking alcohol is sin?

No.

I lost my father to alcoholism when I was six and have tended to both the living and the dead at alcohol-related accident and crime scenes as an adult.

I understand the passion and the wisdom of those who choose or advise abstinence.

-However, I have also tasted the bitter fruit of extra-biblical legalism and have seen it drive too many from a relationship to Christ.

I realize that what I am posting on this subject is not popular, but it is scriptural.

If that is an obsession, so be it.

Tim, Selah & others: I too appreciate the grace all have shown during this discussion.

Thank you.

-jack-

]]> By: Tim Rogers http://sbctoday.com/2008/03/06/beauty-and-the-beast-part-two/#comment-2504 Tim Rogers Sat, 08 Mar 2008 00:57:57 +0000 http://sbctoday.com/2008/03/06/beauty-and-the-beast-part-two/#comment-2504 Brother Dave Miller, If any thing that I have asked or said concerning our disagreement in this comment stream that causes you to think that I do not believe you believe the scripture, I beg forgiveness. However, in the same light, I want you to grasp a truth here. I do not believe that people who believe it is okay to socially drink are biblically unfaithful. I believe they are biblically unwise. The Scripture is full of warnings about alcohol. When the writer of Proverbs said not to look on it when it moves he had no idea about the distillery process of today. The wine in the first century is not the same wine we have today. I just want you to know that I do not feel that way about you. Blessings, Tim Brother Dave Miller,

If any thing that I have asked or said concerning our disagreement in this comment stream that causes you to think that I do not believe you believe the scripture, I beg forgiveness.

However, in the same light, I want you to grasp a truth here. I do not believe that people who believe it is okay to socially drink are biblically unfaithful. I believe they are biblically unwise. The Scripture is full of warnings about alcohol. When the writer of Proverbs said not to look on it when it moves he had no idea about the distillery process of today. The wine in the first century is not the same wine we have today.

I just want you to know that I do not feel that way about you.

Blessings,
Tim

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