Those texts CANNOT be ignored when you are trying to debunk Calvinism’s Limited Atonement. Jesus spoke very clearly WHY some Jews did not believe on HIM: Because they were not given to HIM by the Father. Simply as that. If Jesus had died for them also, they would believe on HIM for sure. But they did not. And this fact is a very troublesome for all Arminians.

Tahnk you.
Daviel

I have seen many, many semi-Pelagians in my day and their teams of pastors are still out in the world preaching the same lack of substance that their predecessors have preached throughout history (frankly it makes me puke). I would hope that the SBC is past that type of non-sense. But, that immaturity will continue to lift its ugly head not matter what, simply because the flesh is weak and likes to feel it is still in control.

My point in #63 was not to take away from the wonderful work that Piper does as he preaches the word of God. He is definitely a bright spot in the world of preachers and one that I respect greatly. And yes, this one sermon does not give his entire take on the subject of the atonement. My point was to say that in this post so far, I have not seen anyone that is arguing against the sufficiency of God unto salvation.

If anyone thinks that they have anything to do with their salvation, then they simply are mistaken according to God. God clearly does not depend upon humans to respond to Him. It is true that those He calls will respond though,..it is something they do… and “they” really do it. That is the power of the Gospel. It is not just some good news “story” or “headline”…it is the power of God unto salvation. God will not be mocked.

That is also the reason that the atonement is not diminished in any way whatsoever when given to the whole world. Scripture is replete with this truth. This does not mean that God applies the salvific benefit of atonement to the lost in any fashion whatsoever. Yet, salvation given to the whole world,….. and that none should parish…. will never lose any of its significance to the Glory of God…. and even in the event that it is seen and given to the whole world does not in any manner whatsoever lessen its application to the elect. God is the mover, and His desire to apply the atonement will not be lessened by its offering to all…..according to Him.

We tend to use terms like diminishing, or less value, etc. for the sake of emotion without understanding that God has spoken and that He is sovereign in all matters.

Again, for those that have commented on this post so far…, I’ve not seen anyone arguing that God is waiting on us, or wringing His hands, hoping that we will make a decision for Him. That would be foolish.

Blessings,
Chris

the statement you make in #65 is not what most non calvinists believe. they do not believe that man can come to God on his own. they do not believe that God is wringing His hands…just hoping that someone will get saved. there are many non five pointers out here who believe that God is actively seeking the lost…calling out to the unsaved… convicting people of thier need for salvation. and yet, with God doing all the work for our salvation on the cross….and, with God initiating the work of grace in our hearts…still, man must resond. he has the responsibility to respond the working of God. iow, he has real choice. and, yes, 1 john 2:2 is a great verse…amongst many verses that show that grace is truly offered to all, and it’s not irresistible.

from my studies of the bible, i reject the fatalism of the dortian calvinists. and, i’m not a calvinist hater. i dont like extreme calvinists, because of the trouble they’ve caused in many churches that i know personally. and, i dont like the theology of the hyer calvinists. it certainly kills evangelism and missions amongst other things. but, i do not hate plain ole five point calvinists. i dont agree with them, but i dont hate them.

david

I believe this guy is absolutely wrong, but at least he is consistent. His preaches what he believes and the god that he is preaching about is the god that he has created in his own image. His god thinks, acts, reasons, and judges the same way that he does.

Thus says the Lord, “you thought I was just like you.” Psalms 50:21

As a side note, I listened to this guys “exposition” of John 6 and Romans 9 and he conveniently skips over those passages that are “hard”.

In Love,

ABClay

You said:

“I have not seen anyone so far that will disagree with the fact that God is the mover in salvation, really all things for that matter. In the case of salvation, ..being that mankind is not capable of coming to Christ without God first moving on the heart and salvation is all of God from beginning through eternity.”

With all due respect, I feel that you should probably talk to more of the “Calvinist Haters” than you have been. The general consensus that I am getting from people that I talk to is that they are somewhat semi-pelagian and believe that God made salvation possible to all people through the death of Christ on the cross, and He made propitiation for the sins of the world (in the sense of all humanity). And they often go to 1 John 2:2 for their “proof”.

While they confess with their mouths that salvation is all of God, these preach and teach that the whole of humanity is laid even and all have the same “availability” of salvation. What then is the mover? What then is the next step in their salvation? Well, they have to do something. They have to believe. It is if God has done all He can do to save the whole of humanity, and He is wringing His hands in heaven, hoping that some will believe.

Let me give you an example. This is not a southern baptist preacher, he is one of the KJV onlyist Fundamentals, but check this sermon out. You will not be able to stand to listen to the entire thing, so I will tell you the applicable portion to our discussion is about 19 minutes into the file. Here is the URL: http://www.faithfulwordbaptist.org/060706p.mp3

As to your comment on Piper, you said:
“I think John makes the actual atonement dependent upon feelings or in the sense of what it has done “for me”, instead of what it (the propitiation) has done for “God’s Glory.”"

If this sermon was the only sermon of Piper’s that one ever listened to, then I can see how one can deduce that kind of sentiment. But you know, since he has been such a blessing to you, that Piper is all about giving Glory to God and he has repeatedly stated as much about the work of Christ on the cross.

It is also my understanding that John Piper believes that the love of God was expressed to all of humanity through the cross. How can one deny the grace that is extended to all of humanity, for we all are deserving of death the moment we are conceived. None of us deserve the rain, the sun, the beauty of creation. Piper doesn’t just restrict the benefits of the cross to the “elect” as some people do (I believe Pink is one of these).

If I have misunderstood the thrust of your statement, you have my apologies. It is late and I have much to do.

In Love,

ABClay

I meant to say……

Unfortunately, this particular Piper sermon, that you have supplied, tends to limit or at least interpret the love of God into one corner of justice. The section “In What Sense Did Jesus Taste Death for a Person in Hell?, …. seems to convey to me,

sorry for the confusion,
Blessings,
Chris

You are surely my brothers and sister in Christ and I really do appreciate the information you have supplied on this subject of the atonement. Fortunately, most of the people on this post have poured over most of the information you have suggested already, but it is always good to go back and try to understand these various points of view throughout history.

I have not seen anyone so far that will disagree with the fact that God is the mover in salvation, really all things for that matter. In the case of salvation, ..being that mankind is not capable of coming to Christ without God first moving on the heart and salvation is all of God from beginning through eternity. There is no doubt of this doctrine in scripture. It could not be any other way, for it is impossible for God to lie. In other words, any sound bible teacher understands that we don’t find God and then decide to accept him on our own. That way of salvation is simply not biblical, even though some preachers find it exciting for selfish reasons.

The root of the atonement however, is not as simplistic or isolated as those that defend and claim concerning their system of “Limited Atonement”. And there are many variations of the system. (I too have my own variation) Again, there is no debate that God makes a definite application of the atonement to those He is saving,….and He certainly does not apply His atonement to those He is not saving. If He did they would be saved.

Biblically, it is clear that the owner of “atonement” is God and not humans. The best illustration I have found of this is when the propitiation is seen in its rawest of form in the 1 John 2 passage, where the term is used in its base form in isolation and any and all other derivatives are used elsewhere. It is very instructive to try and understand what the writer means by we, us, and world. The term “world”, used by John in this passage is not ambiguous. He is discussing salvation (the application of the atonement) and how it relates to the creation that has an advocate and to those who do not, yet the propitiation is not in sway by either.

1 John 2:1-17 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; (2) and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. (3) By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. (4) The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; (5) but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: (6) the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked. (7) Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. (8) On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining. (9) The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now. (10) The one who loves his brother abides in the Light and there is no cause for stumbling in him. (11) But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes. (12) I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake. (13) I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. (14) I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one. (15) Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. (16) For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. (17) The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.

As John would say, the love of God has been perfected in one particular group. Those that have the advocate have the application of the propitiatory. This is no way limits the propitiatory being viewed by all of creation. The “hilasmos” (vs. 2) is in view of those that have an advocate and those that do not. As the writer argues,…. those that have Christ are those that have an advocate,…. Which are those that keep His commandments because of the advocate (actually the advocate has fulfilled them and is interceding).

The “world” in verse 2, is the same “world” in verses 15 and following, and is teaming with meaning (very broad). There is no ambiguity in the passage. Some may think that this zaps “limited atonement” systems, but it really doesn’t. It simply states, that God applies the atonement that He possesses and provides…. in a perfect way without conforming to any system. God’s love is perfect. He brings perfect justice and mercy. Gods love includes all components of justice and mercy, not just the ones that we try and limit.

Unfortunately, this particular Piper sermon tends to limit or at least interpret the love of God into one corner of justice. The “In What Sense Did Jesus Taste Death for a Person in Hell?, is seems to me (probably not everyone), that John is trying to make an emotional plea when he says “If you say to me, then, that at the cross Christ only accomplished for me what he accomplished for those who will suffer hell for their sins, then you strip the death of Jesus of its actual effective accomplishment on my behalf, and leave me with what?—an atonement that has lost its precious assuring power that my sins were really covered and the curse was really lifted and the wrath of God was really removed”. I think John makes the actual atonement dependent upon feelings or in the sense of what it has done “for me”, instead of what it (the propitiation) has done for “God’s Glory.” John simply argues one side of the issues to make his point. He even tempers his argument earlier in the sermon. (Regardless of my thoughts of this one sermon, I regard John Piper as one of the churches most respected theologians. He has been indispensable to me personally!)

Blessings,
Chris

I had forgotten that Chadwick had already posted this. Just goes to show you guys how God works. Not only is it really important to listen to Piper, it’s really, really important.

Sorry for the repost.