Please interpret your last comment for me. I am from the Deep South and we have few penquins here.

The only one I ever watched much was the one that used to fight with Batman on TV when I was a kid.

cb

Thank you for an honest answer. I greatly respect you for it. I am sure we do not share the same political or theological views, but let it be known I thank you for stating openly who you are. We are in a time when many SBC folk speak out both sides of their mouths usually depending on the way the wind is blowing. You do not seem to be one of them.

You have presented the reason we are probably on different wavelengths.

I, too, engaged James Dunn many times when I was in Virginia. He was fearless. I admit I wrote and spoke to every person I could to see him go. I do think the SBC is better for him leaving to a point. The trade for Richard Land was a bad one. Wherein James seemed to advocate everything I could not stand, Richard seem only to continually blow smoke.

Fighting with James Dunn was very educational. Reading what he wrote made one search for truth. Richard ‘s writing makes one yawn.

Dunn was wrong most of the time. I still have not determined what Richard Land is.

cb

James Dunn was a lightning rod for controversy during the 1980s during the height of the Fundamentalists remaking of the SBC. I am not nor would ever be an advocate of the Resurgence. Dunn carried on ably the direction of the BJC which another Texan, JM Dawson started. Looking back historically, I can’t think of any position which Dunn advocated which I could not support. Perhaps that makes me a liberal. If so, then I can live with that.

I was not directly involved until the late 1980s when I began attending SWBTS. I met James Dunn during my first semester at Ft. Worth and found him to be an engaging and thoughtful person and I have found him to be so in our subsequent meetings.

Michael

Remember I said our nation’s Founding Fathers based the foundations of this nation on the Judeo-Christian ethic. I did not say we are or ever have been a Christian nation.

That would be no more true than to say our Founding Fathers were all Christians. They were not. Some were. Some were not. Yet, in their culture, education, and moral compass they all spoke, wrote and no doubt thought in terms of a Judeo-Christian ethic.

Their actions and life-style presented that some did not know Christ or that they were not living for Christ in their daily lives.

As I said, the United States has never been a Christian nation. It is in God’s wonderful grace He has blessed us so very much. It is not upon our merit, for we are now a neo-pagan nation if ever such a nation existed.

You did not interact with all the questions I have ask of you. Naturally, you are free not to do so. You are an American. :-)

You did mention the BJC. Therefore, I would like to ask you to answer one question if you will? Were you supportive of the work of the BJC during the time James Dunn was at its helm?

I am very familiar with Felix Mantz. A man could not have attended the institutions I did and not be familiar with such unless he slept almost every day in class.

In no way did I advocate making the United States a Christian Empire. That was not my point. My point was we are to challenge King and surf alike to bow before Jesus. We are to influence government. We are not to be influenced by government. We have the higher calling.

You did mention the German National Church. The German National Church as other denominations in Germany failed not basically due to governmental entanglement, but due to not being properly “entangled” with God and His Word long before the “little artist” rose to power. Had they been as they should have been with God far more would have stood than the comparatively few that did. When Hitler took control of Germany thre was a church on every corner. That sounds much like the country I live in does it not?

cb

There were significant influences from the Judeo-Christian ethic in founding most of Western civilization. Ours is a unique experiment in government in that our founders created a government that recognized its constituents liberty of conscience to practice or not practice religion.

We are not a Christian nation, however, because only people can be Christian not nations. No earthly government can ever be the kingdom of God on earth.

Of course there are violations of individual’s religious liberty! That is why the Baptist Joint Committee was formed and continues to lobby for religious liberty even for those who are not Baptist.

We all have a responsibility for Christian citizenship. We have a moral responsibility to vote and make our legistlative representatives aware of our concerns. Further, we can only retain our prophetic voice to critique the government if we maintain a distance from it. The German National church lost their prophetic voice because they were too closely entangled with the Nazi political party.

What I am still confused about is why you originally took me to task because I said we shouldn’t want the government involved in religion because it is coercive. Jesus never coerced anyone to believe in him. Throughout history when men tried to make their empires, nations, cities, etc Christian they inevitably had to coerce some to accept the “party line.” Those who did not accept, (just read the story of Felix Mantz who was drowned in the Limat river for being an Anabaptist) were branded as heretics and subversives an eliminated.

We should be overjoyed that we have religious liberty in this nation and should exercise every opportunity to preach the gospel because we are free to do so and so many of our Baptist forebears gave their lives and freedom that we could.

Michael

I may give you a run for your money in a game of golf, but I think both our goals are to preach the precious “good news” to the Glory of God with the faith He has allotted each of us.

I also agree with you in that we can and should influence government.

A case in point: One of our Pastors happens to work full-time for the State of Tennessee, Attorney General’s Office,… where he spends his time defending “us” the tax payers. He has been in a fight for the last two months to keep taxes off the backs of individuals in the state …where the rate inducer (Energy Company) is taking advantage of the law. He was successful and “us” the people get to keep more of the money that is earned and the church is better off in that regard as they are more able to support the work of the gospel ministry with money.

Just one small example from the hills of Tennessee,
Thanks for all your clarifications,
-Chris

I will agree with you in the content of your last comment except about me and fiercely as did Paul. I am sure you are far more the gospel preacher than I. I am just making every effort to be faithful to preach the gospel as well and as often as I am able with what God has given me to work with inthe arena He has placed me. I am the least and the worst of all His children. I seem to understand my accountability far better than I am able to fulfill it.

cb

Would you agree this nation was founded upon the Judeo-Christian ethic?

Are you aware of the various and, in fact, several occurences of state, and a few times federal, government infringing upon the civil rights of a citizen or citizens relating to the First Amendment as it relates to religious practice?

Such violations of religious liberty have been validated even on county and city government levels.

Do you believe we are accountable as men of God to educate our congregations as to their civic duties as the people of God in relation to civil government?

Do you believe Christians have an accountability to influence government and the leaders of government as to the gospel and the gospel’s call upon rulers to rule fairly and just?

Are we are also responsible before God to hold our nation’s government accountable as an agent of God in seeking the highest of morality in all decisions affecting all people?

Please remember there is no such thing as an amoral law or legislative action. Any action a nation’s government enacts is either of a rightly moral nature or of a wrongful moral nature. No decision is neutral in its moral substance.

Government either takes the “high road” or the “low road.” We as believer are to make every effort to influence government to always take the highest course of morality possible in any action affecting the welfare of all citizens. The highest course for any government is always in accord with the Judeo-Christian ethic. For such is founded on the very Word of God itself.

Would you agree with the afore stated concepts?

BTW, we are not, or at least I am not, talking about preaching the gospel versus preaching civil religion or social reformation.

Men of God are to always promote the gospel above all things. That should be a given.

Preaching civil religion or social reformation is for Liberation Theologians,communists, anarchists, terrorists, Hippies, Tree-huggers, socialists, godless liberals and neo-orthodox nuts and heretics

Men of God are to preach the gospel first and foremost or die in the process.

cb

Not accusing you of anything. If anything I would point a finger back at myself. Maybe you are preaching the Gospel as fiercely as Paul ever did,….I hope so….I’ll line up to listen…. My simple point is that we (includes all) so quickly move from the Gospel to the “so-called” practical out-workings of the message that we tend to grow arrogant (Romans 3-4), when it would behoove us to get daily (possibly minute by minute reminders of the Gospel), lest we forget Christ and what He is supplying to carry out His charge.

Your allusion to missed context is still an illusion.

Your brother in a neighboring state,
-Chris