A Misunderstood Principle

You don’t think a message like this, which much of it I disagree with, doesn’t promote paranoia and an anti-government stance? This message was being preached when I was growing up. You don’t think this isn’t just a tad radical and taking scripture out of context?

Debbie,
Your last comment is true of not only past history but also current history.

May we all take notice!

Debbie,
I just listened to Ronnie’s message and I didn’t hear anything in what he said that would lead to paranoia or have an anti-government stance. I heard a history lesson on what the original intent was behind the term, “separation of church and state” and what happened to the churches, to people, to government, because of how that term is interpreted and applied today.

I think I might like living in a world where my pastor can speak to the theological issues related to politics and give his congregation guidance from that perspective without getting in trouble. I personally don’t see anything wrong with it.

Can you please elaborate on what this pastor said in this sermon that would lead you to hear his message and make the comments you made about paranoia and anti-government? Also, what scripture did he take out of context? I’m presuming there is something in your background, upbringing, history that I don’t have and am not aware of, that might help me hear this message differently.

Thanks and God Bless,
Trish

Debbie,

My sister, one of the first statements Ronnie Rogers makes is that the 1st amendment prohibits interference with and forbids the Federal government from messing around with religion period. That is, the Church is protected from Federal government interference.

Yet you write: “The purpose of church and state was to protect the people from the government and not vice versa.” as if Rogers questions that. He does not.

Secondly, Debbie, to wash the sink of Anabaptist influence on the Baptist movement is historically suspect and you’d be hard pressed to offer a modern day Baptist historian who validates what you write–even among those who do not embrace, in wholesale fashion, an alternate theory of Baptist origins. As scholars, they attempt to deal with the evidence and rightly concede ground in doing so. You, however, seem to just wash it all down the drain. Interesting.

Finally, to suggest that pastors cannot/should not deal with politics in pulpit ministry is a curious statement coming from a Calvinist such as yourself whose historic position has been, in many ways, joined at the hip at Church and State. That’s the very genius of the Baptist distinctive Rogers is addressing: against the magisterial Reformers, the Baptists argued a hard, bold line between Church and State.

If pastors cannot deal with such issues, our roots as Baptists are themselves corrupt and illegitimate. Why? Neither should they have dealt with such issues. Consequently, our beginnings are suspect.

Grace, Debbie. With that, I am…

Peter

All,

Oh my…I need another cup of coffee!

The second paragraph above containing: “…even among those who do not embrace, in wholesale fashion, an alternate theory of Baptist origins….” should read: “even among those who embrace, in wholesale fashion, an alternate theory of Baptist origins.

Sorry. With that, I am…

Peter

Peter,

I appreciate the additional insight and comments you bring to this discussion. I will process yours also as I try to understand the issues surrounding this topic.

My reason for wanting to learn is that I was not raised Baptist and have only been a Baptist for the last 2 yrs.

It’s one of the reasons I think God’s the best comedian around because I was raised a NY Catholic in the 60’s & 70’s and never heard of a Baptist until I lived in Texas the for the first time in 1979.

My first lesson about the Baptist faith was that Catholic’s were idol worshippers. I spent the next 25 yrs or so not having a very high opinion of Baptists!

But God, possibly needing a good laugh, used a Baptist pastor to convince this Catholic girl she wasn’t saved. Then He sent her to a Baptist Seminary, then He had her join a Baptist church, and now He has me hungry to learn about my Baptist history.

Yeah, God’s enjoying Himself up there, but that’s ok, He’s allowed to since He’s done so much for me down here.

Blessings to all and thanks for your patience as I ask questions that may seem basic to some of you,
Trish

Trish: I will try and answer any questions that you may have. Thank you for the conversation. And yeah, I agree with Baptists can be a cantankerous bunch sometimes.

Debbie,

Thanks for your willingness to dialog.

I think it’s a mistake to blatantly dismiss history when coming to theological conclusions about doctrine. Our very humanity automatically requires that history be employed in these decisions. By you dismissing history, you actually used it in coming to a decision to not utilize it.

Pastors have a responsiblity to shepherd the church and Christians are to have their faith affect all areas of their life, including their culture, their environment, even their politics. Their faith should inform their positions in these areas and others. The pastor then has the responsibility to equip them theologically for making the right decisions to live worthy of our Lord, to be a positive witness to their family and their community. This does not mean he stand in the pulpit and tell them who to vote for. He is to equip them to make a decision that is glorifying to God.

As for the role of the Anabaptists, I can’t speak much to this because I know so little about it. But what I got from the sermon was not so much the connection of the Anabaptists to the Baptists, as the Anabaptists to the principle behind the separation of church and state.

Where Ronnie is taking this series and how it relates to those darn Baptists is something I don’t know and maybe you do since you obviously have knowledge and history in this area. Maybe he is going to bring together a Baptist/Anabaptist connection and that is what you object to. Again, I don’t know. Without having the knowledge you have, I can’t look ahead to see where he is taking this and why it may be a problem for the Baptist church today.

Thanks again for engaging with me. I do appreciate it. I need to let you know that I have Greek (argh!) in the morning and work to do in it tonight, so I really need to stay away from the blogs or I won’t get things done. I’ll check on them to read them, but won’t be able take time to respond until tomorrow.

Blessings,
Trish